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>> Click here to see's game collections. Full Member has kibitzed 10375 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Aug-31-14 chessforum (replies) About the Caruana rook: The reason why some players have rooks while most don't is that traditionally we have only made them for WCC and candidates events. However we do make exceptions, and we've caught Caruana fever here just like the rest of you, so stay tuned.
   Aug-28-14 Biographer Bistro (replies) <Karpova> Points well taken. The ability to search by keyword on the event/site tags would have many uses beyond those of CG Editors. One of the main reasons why we've never offered that feature is because we know how often that field is blank, incorrect, improperly ...
   Aug-27-14 M Vachier-Lagrave vs Carlsen, 2014 (replies) Sorry, there's no way to invert the board during live broadcast. If you click on the link "review game" to the right of the diagram you can use all of the PGN viewer features, but the moves won't be automatically updated.
   Aug-27-14 Sinquefield Cup (2014) (replies) Note that today's game M Vachier-Lagrave vs Carlsen, 2014 will be a free broadcast. Come discuss the game in good company. The tournament is due to start in about 30 minutes, at 3:00pm USA/Eastern.
   Aug-25-14 Chessgames Bookie chessforum (replies) <Will the imaginary money the bookie makes from his "cut" be reinvested in imaginary game infrastructure? Or will he fritter it away on an imaginary private jet or an imaginary beach house in Bali?> We don't specifically funnel his juice back into the game, but with the
   Aug-05-14 C Baljon vs B Enklaar, 1974 (replies) This is actually an error on our part. The combination is fully busted after 28...Be7, or if not, it's far too subtle for a Tuesday. We'll run a replacement shortly.
   Jul-28-14 James R West (replies) <Poisonpawns> This is old news, but Mr. West has responded to your anecdote through his blog: <I have no recollection of ever refusing to shake an opponent's hand, either before or after a game, in nearly 40 years of tournament ...
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< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 738 OF 738 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <chessgames> thank you so much for the very detailed reply.

I'm still studying it, and am again looking at TWIC games for the Tromso tournament.

(I had the impression that TWIC agreed with FIDE for the Open Section, but I could be wrong. Since I change my code so much I have to do a new, fresh run).

One question I have right now however, is whether or not TWIC supplied the games from the Women's Section?

Maybe I missed them somehow, but I think TWIC only supplied the Open Section.

Do you know?

* * * * *

<TD> best icon of the bunch.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Shams: Can we get a dancing rook with Caruana's face on it? I'm willing to bet you'll get good use out of it over the next few years.
Premium Chessgames Member <whether or not TWIC supplied the games from the Women's Section?> Sure they did, I even have the link to the PGN:

<dancing Caruana rook> That's a good idea.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <chessgames> thanks for the link!

Not sure how I missed it, working too late at night I guess.

Premium Chessgames Member
  technical draw: Thanks all for the praises. Sometimes you think no one is paying attention then you are surprised by the well wishes and good reports. Well, now you're stuck with me for another year!
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <chessgames> FYI


TWIC does include the FIDE id for all colors for some of the games (171 if my program is working right) for Tromso wolm.


[Event "41st Olympiad Women 2014"]
[Site "Tromso NOR"]
[Date "2014.08.02"]
[Round "1.62"]
[Board "4"]
[White "Ralivololona Hanitriniaina, Andri Hanitriniaini"] [Black "Machlik, Edit"]
[Result "0-1"]
[BlackElo "1950"]
[ECO "B13"]
[Opening "Caro-Kann"]
[Variation "exchange variation"]
[WhiteTeam "Madagascar"]
[BlackTeam "Norway 2"]
[BlackFideId "1513591"]
[EventDate "2014.08.02"] >

He's got every tag but the kitchen sink... and <WhiteFideId>.

These kinds of inconsistencies are a major headache - I really need some part of the system stable in order to bootstrap.

Well, not really, but it's making the code increasing Ptolemaic in its error handling...

Do you know Mark? Maybe we should tip him off on it.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: I know this most likely has come up before - but I'll repeat it again.

(I'm not sure if I brought it up before, but if I did, apologies in advance).

Is it possible for <CG> to order a player's games not just by year, by also by Event/Site field as well?

In other words, can all the player's games from the same event be grouped together?

This sure would help me in scanning by eye for games <CG> has vs games which are missing.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: And while I'm flooding the forum...

Can <CG> possibly normalize the Site tag for the <Sinquefield> pgn?

Here's what it gives currently (after R3):

<[Event "0:08:33-0:04:33"]>

<[Event "Saint Louis USA"]> x 5

<[Event "0:03:33-0:05:33"]>

<[Event "Saint Louis USA"]> x 2

<[Event "St. Louis USA"]>

This stuff chokes SCID, making it impossible to get an xtab out without fixing the pgn by hand.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: And to add to the last post...

Also the player's names, <CG> is supplying the games with multiple versions in the PGN:


Aronian | L Aronian | Levon Aronian

Carlsen | Magnus Carlsen

Caruana | Fabiano Caruana

Hi Nakamura | Hikaru Nakamura

Maxime Vachier-Lagrave | Vachier Lagrave,M

V Topalov | Veselin Topalov

Yes, I admit to a name infatuation.

Premium Chessgames Member Hi Zanzibar:

<Do you know Mark?> We've exchanged emails on a few occasions.

<Is it possible for <CG> to order a player's games not just by year, by also by Event/Site field as well?> They should be, but if it was really easy to do that we would have done it long ago. It's not a huge technical challenge to make it work, but to make it work really quickly will take finesse. It will require changes to SQL statements and some major re-indexing of our tables.

<Can <CG> possibly normalize the Site tag for the <Sinquefield> pgn?> This is a nuance that is probably new to you. Here's the situation:

During live broadcasts, the clock information is stuffed into the PGN. Since there are no widely accepted fields for "how much time white has / how much time black has" it has become a de facto practice to stuff that information into, of all things, the site field. So at the end of one of our live games, invariably we end up with a site that looks like <0:08:33-0:04:33>. (You'll notice it always has 33 seconds for both players. There's a story behind that as well, but I'll save it for another day.)

Fortunately we have written a program that identifies such data and replaces it with what it should be (it does this simply by looking for other site tags in the same tournament that aren't clock times.) In the rare occasion when it finds a discrepancy (two different site tags for the same event) an admin has to review the situation. For example "Linares/Morelia" from a few years back required manual fixing.

So I just ran the software at your request, but expect to see that kind of data slip into the games during the tournament. When it's over, we'll run it one last time to rid ourselves of the remaining mangled site tags.

In a perfect world the live-game-broadcasting software would know what to do when the game was over, and made that timestamp only show up while the game is in progress.

<Also the player's names, <CG> is supplying the games with multiple versions in the PGN> You are witnessing what the official site is producing--one run of fixpgn and it will all be normalized.

(Trivial side note: Ever noticed that half of the time I say "fixpgn" and the other have I say "pgnfix"? The reason is this: it really is called fixpgn, but by more orthodox naming conventions it should have been called pgnfix. (noun-verb). That way, if I want to see all the programs that do things to pgn, I could type <ls pgn*>. It's unlikely that I want to see all of the programs that "fix" things. But for whatever reason I named it fixpgn when I first made it, so now I live with it, and constantly confuse myself. It reminds me of the web server environment variable "referer", which was a typo made years ago, as "referrer" is how the word is spelled. Now it's been in use so long that's become the official name of it.)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Shams: <cg> I realize this could not be more trivial, but if Caruana pulls it off today against Levon it'd be a great time to unveil his Custom Dancing Rook!
Premium Chessgames Member
  john barleycorn:

I think, the opening classification is wrong.

It should be "King's Gambit (C30-C39)"

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <chessgames> I have a lot of follow ups... but let me start with this one for one game:

K Arakhamia-Grant vs V Da Vilhete, 2014

Both <CG> and <TWIC> have this as a 33-move win for White.

<FIDE>'s official link gives it as a 7-move win for White.


Pretty clear which result is correct, <TWIC>'s (assuming <CG> is following <TWIC> - it doesn't really get an independent vote). There is no way the game ended at move 7.

Now the question - how is it that <TWIC> got the correct score while <FIDE>'s site didn't?

1) Maybe Mark gets e-mailed the scores from the players themselves?

If so, it would be nice to have this information somehow noted. It would also be nice if the results could be forwarded to FIDE itself, in order to correct the record. FIDE really should be the authority for these games after all.

2) Maybe Mark has a special connection with <FIDE>, and they give him a different version than what they publish.

The obvious implication here is that <FIDE> really should correct the scores for both the public and <TWIC> if this were the case.

As a biographer we're supposed to care about stuff like this. As a chess player who downloads the games I would like to know the providence of the games - and to have the version I download as correct as possible.

Premium Chessgames Member
  SwitchingQuylthulg: <zanzibar> has the 33-move version; it seems the .zip version has simply been truncated for some reason. You'll find it ends with "7. a3", not "7. a3 1-0".
Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <switch> I suppose that could suggest a third possibility...

3) FIDE once had the correct version of the game in an earlier zip-file, which <CG> and <TWIC> downloaded. Later, the zip-file got corrupted (or somehow updated with a corrupt/truncated version of the pgn).

I still wondering how anybody got the correct version of the game.

Premium Chessgames Member So now it's looking like this might be a manifestation of my comment <On rare occasions (but not so rare to ignore) the process seems to work backwards, and something that was released correct ends up crazy in later updates.>
Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Chessgames Editor Guide

<This is a tedius but rewarding project.>

I know my nitpicking is tedious, but that's a pretty ironic error.

Premium Chessgames Member Haha, thanks Ohio.
Aug-31-14  Penguincw: Hi <cg>. Would it be possible to create a personalized dancing rook for Caruana? I believe there's one for Carlsen, but since Caruana has already won 5 times at the Sinquefield Cup, would it be possible to make one for him (doesn't have to be used this tournament)?
Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: Can't let <Ohio> outpedant me, can I? ;p

On the same page (Chessgames Editor Guide) -

<To remedy this daunting problem, the tireless efforts of our Chessgames Editors sort matters out using a powerful three-step process that we call "Tournment Induction":>

- maybe calling it "Tournament Induction" would be better...

BTW, look for a mail too. :)

Aug-31-14  Penguincw: Sorry for this, but I'd like to get involved too.

< Please describe you skills and resources as a chess historian, database expert, etc. >

Unfortunately, me no good enough (j/k). :)

Premium Chessgames Member Thanks, it's only appropriate that the CG Editors end up going over the Chessgames Editor Guide with a fine tooth comb.
Premium Chessgames Member About the Caruana rook:

The reason why some players have rooks while most don't is that traditionally we have only made them for WCC and candidates events.

However we do make exceptions, and we've caught Caruana fever here just like the rest of you, so stay tuned.

Premium Chessgames Member
  zanzibar: <chessgames> & <switch>

So FIDE does have the correct game, on the individual boards.

It's still not clear to me if the zip file was ever correct - since I'm still unsure if <CG> didn't get the correct version from <TWIC>.

Do you know?

As I've said before, my experience is that FIDE doesn't update the zip files once published. (I could be wrong).

* * * * *

A little more about <TWIC> vs <FIDE> for <Tromso Women olm 2014>.

It has some errors. Let's start with some errors that <CG> also has, concerning the FIDE id of these two players:

<FIDE missing names (not found in TWIC):

Ramirez M. Eugenia (3301680 vs Maria Eugenia Ramirez 3301133)

Sotomayor Villatoro, Silvi (7301057 vs Silvia Sotomayor 7300611) >

I've left notes on <CG> for these players to try to help sort this out.

Next, ignoring the missing games that involve these two players, there is one game found on <TWIC> not on <FIDE>:

<2014.08.02 (R1.65) 1-0 Nikolovska, Dragana -- Winfred Thitu (C62) 39>

This is clearly just a mistake, as both Nikolovska and Thitu already have Round 1 games. (<CG> doesn't have this one).

There are also two <FIDE> games missing from <TWIC>:

<FIDE missing games (not found in TWIC):

2014.08.02 (R1.21) 1-0 Nikolovska, Dragana -- Maryam (C62) 39

2014.08.09 (R7.7) = Paloma, Gladys Anne -- Itangishaka Aurore (A00) 0>

The first game is on <CG>, but not the 2nd, since it's a stub game. I checked that individual game on chess24, and the moves were missing there as well.

And to finish the comparison, there are many <FIDE> games with a trivial extra move at the end, typically an illegal king move. <CG> and <TWIC> both eliminate these spurious moves.

Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <(often, but not always the owner of the collection) >

Needs a comma after "always".

< there is always a demand up update tournament information >

to update.

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