< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 22 ·
|Sep-22-11|| ||Shams: Kasparov has some pretty absurd ideas about world political "history", to the point where he's about disqualified as a source, I'd say.|
|Sep-22-11|| ||Calli: <Chancho> Thank you. I have OMGP propping up a table leg and hesitate to remove it :-> So there is no source, but this "fact" is now everywhere including Wikipedia. Even if Grace had Jewish heritage, the Germans didn't know else she would be put in a concentration camp. Likely, Alekhine would not have known either since she didn't live as Jew. And she could even been like Madeline Albright and not known herself.|
|Sep-22-11|| ||twinlark: <Calli>, <Shams>|
I've modified Alekhine's bio to reflect the uncertainty of Grace's background as a Jew; it is certainly a bane of the internet that a spurious contention can be propagated as a fact so many times that it becomes accepted as true.
Kasparov's OMGPs are clunky and unreliable, and his machinations as a politician more than a little devious, so it's understandable that his word might be taken with a grain of salt.
But his background is Jewish, and certainly under the definitions the Nazis used, he would have been classified as a Jew. Also sites such as http://www.jinfo.org/index.html whose mission statement is to <to provide an online resource that accurately describes the Jewish contribution to the cultural, scientific, and technological evolution of civilization.> consider him a Jew. Kasparov himself might not be a devout Jew, or even consider himself to be a Jew, but he was/is part of the broader Jewish community regardless and so it could have been of some interest to him.
So in this context, his comment that Alekhine's son had considered his mother, Grace, to be a Jew may have been straightforward reportage of what Alex jnr had said, unless Kasparov lied outright...and why would he do that in this case? We know that Alex jnr regularly attended Dortmund as a spectator and was still alive as recently as 2005 when he was photographed at Dortmund, so it's not like he was inaccessible or unknown.
If that is the case, then I wouldn't buy that Alekhine wouldn't have known if his wife was a Jew (much less Grace) if his son knew, regardless of him being raised as an Episcopalian - being born a Jew doesn't guarantee their adherence to Judaism, and more than someone's background in Christianity makes them an adherent to Christianity. It probably was of no import to start with, but would have been of crucial importance later when he returned to Europe to presumably protect her and her not inconsiderable assets, including a villa the Nazis had seized for their own use, after she was denied a visa to leave. She was a dual American/British citizen, so why would an exit visa have been denied?.
Even if she wasn't a Jew, it appears that her inability to leave Europe (for whatever reason...) was a powerful reason for Alekhine to remain, and there is no doubt the Nazis would have been sufficiently ruthless to use their presence to their own advantage.
|Sep-23-11|| ||Shams: <twinlark> It surely can't matter at all that Garry's mother was Jewish or whether he himself is. |
The issue of Grace's Jewishness, it seems to me, comes to bear only if Alekhine's defense to the essays was that he was coerced. But Alekhine himself never asserted that defense, as <kp> has pointed out: he either admitted or denied authorship, full stop. That behavior is not consistent with coercion.
Is your point that if Grace was Jewish, and Alekhine knew this, he couldn't have been anti-semitic, not <really>? This objection is easily dealt with, I'm afraid. People marry other people that they hate all the time.
Perhaps the discussion should be moved to the Alekhine page.
|Sep-23-11|| ||twinlark: <Shams> <Perhaps the discussion should be moved to the Alekhine page.> OK|
|Sep-23-11|| ||chancho: From page 455 of OMGP pt1:
A letter from Alekhine sent to the organizers of the London Tournament 1946:
<The fact is, in Germany and in occupied territory, we were under constant supervision and the threat of the concentration camp on the part of the Gestapo... I have played Chess in Germany and occupied countries because this was our only means of livelihood, but also the price I paid for my wife's liberty. In these articles, which appeared in 1941 during my stay in Portugal, and which became known to me in Germany as reproduced in the Deutsche Schachzeitung there is nothing that was written by me. The matter which I had provided related to the necessary reconstruction of the International Chess Federation and to a critical appreciation, written long before 1939 of the theories of Steinitz and Lasker. I was astonished ... at the reaction which these purely technical articles had produced in America. It is only when I obtained knowledge of the perfectly stupid balderdash which emanated from a mind imbued with Nazi ideas, that I understood what was on foot. At that time I was a prisoner of the Nazis and our only chance was to keep silent before the whole world. The vapourings of the Pariser Zeitung were a fake.>
Commentary on the above letter by Kasparov: <One would like to believe Alexander Alexandrovich to the end, but Chess Historians have unearthed two interviews by the Champion, published in the Spanish Press on 3 Sept, 1941, before his departure to the Munich tournament. In them Alekhine declared that 'in the Newspaper Pariser Zeitung he first tried to examine Chess from a racial viewpoint' reported on his intention to read several lectures about Aryan and Semitic types of chess. And to the question which Chess Players he admired, he replied: I must specially mention the greatness of Capablanca, who was called on to overthrow the Jew Lasker from the World chess throne.>
|Sep-23-11|| ||WannaBe: Made a similiar post on <RonB>'s forum, wondering what is your opinion on this:|
|Sep-24-11|| ||twinlark: <keypusher>
No worries. Did you ever get around to reading <Manthropology>? ( Kenneth Rogoff )
|Sep-26-11|| ||keypusher: <twinlark: <keypusher> |
No worries. Did you ever get around to reading <Manthropology>? ( Kenneth Rogoff )>
I never did. In fact I forgot about it, I am sorry to say. But it (still!) sounds interesting, and I will track it down one of these days.
There was a long article by Pinker in the Wall Street Journal this past Saturday on the decline of violence. Not sure it adds much to what we've discussed, but if I can find a nonsubscription link I'll post it on the Rogoff page.
|Sep-26-11|| ||keypusher: <<Calli: <Chancho> Thank you. I have OMGP propping up a table leg and hesitate to remove it :-> So there is no source, but this "fact" is now everywhere including Wikipedia. Even if Grace had Jewish heritage, the Germans didn't know else she would be put in a concentration camp. Likely, Alekhine would not have known either since she didn't live as Jew. And she could even been like Madeline Albright and not known herself.>>|
Some of us have our doubts about Madeline's lack of knowledge. :-)
Anyway, here's a question for everyone. Why did the Nazis leave Rubinstein alone? It's not like there was any doubt about his Jewishness...Alekhine even mentioned him in his articles.
|Sep-26-11|| ||Shams: <Why did the Nazis leave Rubinstein alone?> |
Well, I haven't been following class too closely, but I think I'll raise my hand here and offer, "Because they didn't care about chess?"
|Sep-26-11|| ||chancho: <Scott> You may find this of interest:|
|Sep-26-11|| ||keypusher: <Shams: <Why did the Nazis leave Rubinstein alone?>
Well, I haven't been following class too closely, but I think I'll raise my hand here and offer, "Because they didn't care about chess?">|
A gold star for you! But they did care, deeply, about Jews.
|Sep-26-11|| ||keypusher: <chancho> Thanks as always. It seems like the only halfway valid data is that gathered by Donaldson and Minev, and even it doesn't tell us much.|
|Sep-26-11|| ||Shams: <But they did care, deeply, about Jews.> Yeah, they did seem to have a hang-up there. |
As for your question, wikipedia doesn't know, which means I don't either. <"It is not clear how the Jewish grandmaster survived World War II in Nazi-occupied Belgium."> The apocryphal story is hard to believe of course.
|Sep-29-11|| ||ughaibu: Post for you here: M Gesthuyson vs A O'Brien, 1986|
|Oct-06-11|| ||Open Defence: Happy Birthday!|
|Oct-06-11|| ||jessicafischerqueen: Happy birthday <keypusher>!|
|Dec-12-11|| ||Domdaniel: Indeed.|
|Dec-19-11|| ||Resignation Trap: Have you seen this photo?:
|Dec-20-11|| ||keypusher: <Resignation Trap> No! I have to say, Pillsbury looks awful. Be great to add that to the game collection.|
|Dec-23-11|| ||brankat: May You have a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!|
|Dec-24-11|| ||chancho: Merry Christmas, <Keypusher>!|
|Dec-25-11|| ||tpstar: <keypusher> Merry Christmas!|
Have a great holiday with your family.
|Dec-25-11|| ||Open Defence: Merry Christmas!!!!|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 19 OF 22 ·