< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 171 OF 171 ·
|Jun-04-18|| ||thegoodanarchist: <morfishine: <thegoodanarchist> If you haven't already read it, "The Guns of August" is an excellent book to introduce oneself to WWI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_G...|
I've heard good things about it - maybe from Mosier in <Death Ride>?
|Jun-04-18|| ||thegoodanarchist: < Troller: Re <'Death Ride'>|
It's an interesting premise, and without having read the book it is difficult for me to judge it one way or the other. ...
As for the Soviet-German premise, I already hesitate to buy it without having read the book. I believe the sheer production numbers (and the number of armed troops deployed) show that Germany was in the long run fighting a losing battle.>
And that is exactly the problem! <I believe the sheer production numbers>
Of course, you meant that you believe they show Germany was in a losing battle, but that implies belief in the numbers themselves. Had those numbers been accurate you of course would be quite right.
Yet the only production at which the Soviets were exceedingly good was the production of propaganda, and statistics to further the propaganda.
From childhood I studied WWII, and in particular, the Eastern Front. I've found it fascinating to no end. And I always was aware of the production numbers. 2000+ tanks per month, etcetera etcetera.
Why did the Soviet OB always seem so low? Why weren't those tanks making it to the battles? The planes? Because they didn't exist, much like the roads on the maps the Germans used during Barbarossa.
Those roads were inventions of the Stalinists, nothing but phantoms. As were most of those tanks and planes.
|Jun-04-18|| ||Big Pawn: < morfishine: <thegoodanarchist> If you haven't already read it, "The Guns of August" is an excellent book to introduce oneself to WWI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_G...|
Good tip. I just added that to my reading list at goodreads.com. I'm behind on my reading but I'm getting there.
I find WW1 fascinating for a few reasons. When I was a kid, my great grandmother was still alive. She was born in the late 1890s and her brothers fought in the war. I was really interested in the two world wars when I was a kid so I asked lots of questions and I guess it stuck with me every since.
The other thing I find fascinating about WW1 is that most people know almost nothing about it! How is it possible that people don't know even the major names and figures surrounding WW1? I find that to be amazing and interesting.
Of course, WW2 is often seen as a continuation of WW1, so it's interesting to go back and figure out exactly why the countries went to war in 1914. It goes back a lot further than the assassination of the Arch Duke. Things had been heating up for a long time.
I just watched a three part mini series call 37 Days. It's English. It's quite interesting and documents the 37 days before the way primarily from the British and German perspectives but from other perspectives too. Worth watching.
WW1 is also interesting because it was the first war with modern weapons like machine guns (yes, they were used sporadically before), air planes, subs and bigger & badder artillery, not to mention million man armies. These were some scary battles! The generals were schooled in the old way of fighting and it took a while for them to adjust their strategies and tactics in harmony with modern weaponry. What a slaughter. The battle of Somme itself is something to behold.
|Jun-05-18|| ||morfishine: <Big Pawn> Perhaps a reason most people have little interest in WWI, is its fixed in their mind(s) that "The Great War" featured nothing but boring static trench warfare which saw millions slaughtered in futile frontal attacks. Perhaps its this gross generalization that deters most people from having an ongoing interest|
A fantastic read on WWI is "The American Heritage History of World War I" https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-a...
This is a wonderful and comprehensive book that covers all aspects leading up to the war and during the war. It is so well written, colorful in style yet highly detailed.
Its a large book 9X11 inches & 1 inch thick running almost 400 pages, much like the others in the series covering the American Revolution, Civil War and World War II. I highly recommend this book. Constantly throughout my read I was thinking to myself "Ahh HA!, now I understand"
|Jun-05-18|| ||morfishine: <Big Pawn> Here's a terrific article from MSN showing some of the first colored photographs taken during WWI. These are not re-touched or colourized: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...|
|Jun-06-18|| ||Troller: Hi <tga> - <Sheer production numbers> of the Soviet effort was inflated, no doubt. This is well documented already; of course Stalin had a political reason for this, but also the production plants themselves had an incentive to inflate their reported numbers.|
That the reported numbers are inflated does not mean that the Soviets did not basically out-produce Germany (and the headcount is equally important here). After the collapse of the Soviet Union there were made some studies reaching more reliable figures. If these can be challenged as well, then there may be a point - however, the sources are less accessible today than in the early nineties, and of course extensive knowledge of Russian is also required. I have never studied the subject - meaning gone to the sources - so I am not an expert, but I know that most scholars who have delved into the issue more deeply still maintain that once production plants were relocated and adjusted, the Soviet could match Germany.
The whole question is complex of course; the purges had left the Red Army devoid of capable officers, easily shown in the Finnish war. "By luck" the very able Zhukov was there to take control, where a more typical commander-in-chief might have proven a disaster for Russia. The impact of partisan warfare can also be difficult to assess. But surely, if the Soviet Union was incapable of producing military equipment and they were ridden with inexperienced party-officers, Germany should have rolled over the country easily. Yet it did not happen.
|Jun-06-18|| ||thegoodanarchist: <Troller: if the Soviet Union was incapable of producing military equipment and they were ridden with inexperienced party-officers, Germany should have rolled over the country easily. Yet it did not happen.>|
Well, I disagree - in my view, Germany did roll over the country easily, relatively speaking.
From the pre-war border to Stalingrad the German 6th Army had to go 1000 kilometers!
Most of the infantry traveled on foot, and of course they faced Soviet military resistance the entire way, plus some distance they had to cover twice, because the Germans pulled back during the Winter of 1941-42.
So in the first 14 months of the war the German Army covered about 1200 km, about 90 km per month. In war, it doesn't get much easier than that!
They did not win though, because they failed to deny the Red Army of its oil supply near the Caspian, and its Lend-Lease supply through Murmansk.
But this only allowed the Soviets to continue to avoid surrender. They couldn't really go on the offensive until the Western allies opened up a ground front in Italy and an air front over Germany.
Hitler cancelled the 1943 Summer Offensive to free up units for defending Italy, not because of Soviet might.
|Jun-06-18|| ||morfishine: <thegoodanarchist> Nice post. Its fairly incredible how much damage the German army caused. After the rebuff at Moscow from Dec '41 - Jan '42 it would've been easy to conclude the Germans were finished and the Russians would have the upperhand going forward. But the damage caused by Stalin's purges and the losses from the opening battles meant the Russian forces were still weak and averagely led. The replacement rate was not keeping up with losses, manpower or material. |
So when the Germans commenced the 1942 campaign, they picked up right where they left off: ripping through the Russian formations like s__t through a goose
Much of this can be attributed to better training by the Germans, better equipment, better tactics & better leaders. Plus the Germans weren't so stupid as to murder its best soldiers and officers prior to the war starting
|Jun-06-18|| ||thegoodanarchist: < morfishine:
But the damage caused by Stalin's purges and the losses from the opening battles meant the Russian forces were still weak and averagely led>
"averagely led" is telling.
FWIW, to me, it is obvious that <Troller> has more than passing knowledge of WW2 Eastern Front. I found his comments to be worthwhile.
So the fact that he holds up <Zhukov> as an example of *good* Soviet generalship speaks to their dearth of talent.
Zhukov was certainly *capable*. He survived Stalin!
But it might be impossible to ever say anything beyond that (definitively, not speculatively), about not just Zhukov but any Stalin-era Soviet military commander.
|Jun-06-18|| ||morfishine: <thegoodanarchist> Good evening sir, I appreciate your comments: <..."averagely led" is telling...FWIW, to me, it is obvious that <Troller> has more than passing knowledge of WW2 Eastern Front. I found his comments to be worthwhile> I agree completely|
|Jun-07-18|| ||takchess: During WWI, My grandfather's class at Lowell Textile unamously enlisted upon graduation in the Yankee division and shipped to France. They fought under French leadership which wasnt liked by Pershing. So disliked that they were disbanded as a division after WWI.|
|Jun-07-18|| ||takchess: The last piece of being disbanded may be inaccurately remembered by me. 26th Infantry Division https://g.co/kgs/3hG7k6.|
|Jun-08-18|| ||morfishine: Thanks <takchess>! That is a very interesting story and much thanks for the link to the 26th infantry division|
|Jun-08-18|| ||morfishine: <al wazir> I don't think the birds found the sugar water by smelling the sugar water. I think the birds were attracted to the feeder, then found their sugar treat. I also believe birds are capable of learned behavior, no doubt. In other words, once they find a feeder that provides food, they will return repeatedly. And their returning and resulting feeding ruckus attracts other birds.
I installed a bird feeder up and inside my oak tree via rope throw line over a stout branch. This was after numerous failed attempts to find a hanging location that was squirrel proof. It was hilarious. I'd use my ropes and have the feeder set right in the middle of my back yard, but it passed too close to my back patio. The squirrels figured this out and ran along the fence, then to the house and then to the patio where they would leap bodily towards the feeder which was about 5 feet away. Sometimes they were successful, other times they would collide with the feeder but fail to latch on and fall spinning to the ground. Either way, bird feed was hurled in all directions on each impact while those squirrels that managed to hold on to the feeder, ate what was left, then jumped to the ground. It was a riot but too much feed was being deposited in my back yard which attracted rats. Time for a new plan|
This resulted in me flinging a rock tied to the end of a rope over a high limb (15 feet high about 8 feet from the trunk of the tree, too far for the squirrels to leap). I then lowered the rock and tied a feeder loaded with feed, then pulled it up to about 6 feet off the ground anchoring by tying the opposite end to a fence.
The point about all this gibberish is I usually don't get a lot of bird traffic; but within a day, there were numerous birds flittering around the feeder. A pair of cardinals were the regulars, but there were blue jays, sparrows and titmice. Since the feeder was hoisted up inside the oak, it was very difficult to see from the outside. These birds may've smelled the feed. Or maybe birds, just by habit, check everything that looks promising until they find food
*Note: This is a work in progress posted here so I can make changes and corrections
|Jun-11-18|| ||Troller: <tga> Thanks for kind words. Of course the scale of the German advance in 1941 was almost ridiculous but it is often forgotten that at the time Soviet was not considered a major military power. They managed however to turn it into a war of attrition in which case Germany would slowly but surely be outnumbered. I appreciate the revisionist idea though, this is what brings advances in science. Btw, was not there something about Hitler being terrified at the prospect of repeating Napoleon's campaign?|
<Morf> Hilarious read. As owner of a small farm with an organically run apple orchard I have had done a lot to attract birds the last couple of years. Squirrels are comparatively rare where I live and not really an issue (lucky me I gather!). An interesting guest this year has been a nesting pair of kestrels in what was actually meant to be an owl house behind the farm. Hopefully they will return next year.
In the orchard we have numerous small birds helping us in the never-ending battle against leaf-eating larvae. So during long winter evenings one can always build some birdhouses from leftover wood...
|Jun-11-18|| ||morfishine: <Troller> Thank you very much for that information, especially mentioning Kestrels! I had not heard of that species. In Florida, the prevalent hawks are red-tailed & red-shouldered. |
Kestrels are a beautiful and fascinating little hawk. Reading up on this species led me to falconry, which is very interesting too: https://www.n-a-f-a.com/page/What_i...?
|Jun-12-18|| ||moronovich: Good evening <morfishine> !|
Nice new avatar (though my personal favourite is the old cup of coffee;).Seems you are ready for the world cup!
And did you recieve my e-mail,2-3 days ago ?
All the bets
and all the best
|Jun-12-18|| ||morfishine: Yes sir dear <moronovich> and I responded and I wish Denmark the best in this World Cup 2018!|
|Jun-14-18|| ||takchess: Falconry
I was interested in the origin of wrapped around your finger when I found this.
|Jun-14-18|| ||morfishine: <takchess> Thanks a lot! That is really interesting!|
|Jun-15-18|| ||Tiggler: <Morf> I happened to notice the WWII speculations here on "what if ... ".|
My favorite one is "What if the Manhattan Project had produced its bombs 15 months earlier than it did?"
It's hard to imagine a greater boon to mankind: no need for D-day, no 45 years of Soviet occupation of eastern Europe, 3-4 million less holocaust deaths, millions less German, Russian, British, American and other casualties, not to mention all the protracted suffering in the Pacific war.
|Jun-15-18|| ||morfishine: Hi <Tiggler>! Thanks for dropping by! There are quite a few intriguing "what ifs" coming out of WWII. I especially enjoy those that had a realistic chance of actually happening. I think the bomb could've been produced earlier, but there was no urgency until Einstein warned the US that R/D should be undertaken immediately since Germany was already working on the bomb. Only then did the project commence|
One "what if" I wrote a paper on was 'What if the P-47 Thunderbolt was designed from the ground up to carry the necessary fuel for long range missions?' We know the old story of how the Bolts were deployed to Europe at the end of 1942 and as long range bombing missions escalated in 1943 it was obvious the bolts did not have the range, and thus bomber losses became cost prohibitive. Somebody in design royally screwed up (neglect).
Then the darling P-51 Mustang was mated to a Rolls Royce Merlin engine in the fall of 1943, and presto, the Allied had a war winning long range fighter.
Sadly, the bolt also proved to be a successful long range escort fighter (range almost as far as the Mustang) once the external & internal fuel tank issues were finally resolved (spring 1944), but only after the Mustang had taken over escort duties
In other words, if the plane had been designed initially with all the drop tank hard points and maximum internal fuel cells, the US would've had a war-winning long range escort fighter a full year before the Mustang arrived. We wouldn't have needed the merlin powered Mustang. Those horrendous losses suffered by bomber command between Aug - Oct 1943 would've been largely reduced and the Luftwaffe would've been placed permanently on the defensive having lost air superiority over Germany much sooner
At least that was the premise of my paper
|Jun-17-18|| ||thegoodanarchist: < Tiggler: <Morf> I happened to notice the WWII speculations here on "what if ... ".|
My favorite one is "What if the Manhattan Project had produced its bombs 15 months earlier than it did?"
It's hard to imagine a greater boon to mankind: no need for D-day, no 45 years of Soviet occupation of eastern Europe, 3-4 million less holocaust deaths, millions less German, Russian, British, American and other casualties, not to mention all the protracted suffering in the Pacific war.>
What if, in your scenario, Hitler prioritized the jet fighter, Me-262?
(by the way, it is a beautiful twin-engine jet. If I were a billionaire I'd buy one and restore it to flight)
So the Me-262 goes into combat operations and is mass produced in early 1943!
Now your A-bomb mission faces a more serious obstacle than the propeller-driven fighters (e.g., FW-190) that were slightly outclassed by our P-51 Mustang. How to ensure you get your bomber + A-bomb over Berlin to drop?!
|Jun-17-18|| ||thegoodanarchist: <Then the darling P-51 Mustang was mated to a Rolls Royce Merlin engine in the fall of 1943, and presto, the Allied had a war winning long range fighter. >|
That was such a bad-ass plane that some countries had them in their air forces well into the 1960s, IIRC.
It was faster than anything the Germans had up until the jet fighters came out. By then of course it was too late for the Luftwaffe.
Yeager had multiple jet kills against the Germans, in his P-51. A bad-ass pilot for a bad-ass fighter plane!
|Jun-18-18|| ||morfishine: <thegoodanarchist> Coincidentally, I wrote a short 5-6 page paper centered on the question: "If the ME-262 was ordered to production earlier as a fighter, could this have changed the course of the war?" |
I approached this question from an offbeat angle. My premise was if the Allies succeeded in their invasion, it wouldn't have mattered. Why? A successful invasion allows the Allies to forward deploy its tactical air assets (9,000 planes) and other short range attack planes to newly built airfields in France and eventually Belgium.
In other words, the ME-262 had to materially assist in repelling the invasion. Otherwise the war was lost even if it was deployed earlier as a fighter.
I thought this was an interesting angle
*The disc I had this paper saved to was swiped clean! This was a huge disappointment though I think I could re-create the paper. What was most sorely missed were the supporting production numbers and relevant dates. For example, we know approximately ~1,400 ME-262's left the production line by wars end. Many never became operational. I recall that if production was started sooner, about ~1,000 more planes would've been produced.
Part of the problem with the air effort began much earlier after the Polish campaign. Hitler forbade the increase in pilot training, which was urged upon him by his Air generals. His reasoning was 'There's no reason to increase above 360 pilots per month. We are only producing 370 ME-109's per month'. Such ridiculous reasoning was a great unknown benefit to the Allies
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