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Member since Nov-17-05

My wrap of our Chessgames Challenge: The World vs A Nickel, 2006 against ICCF Grandmaster Arno Nickel is at User: World Team Tribute.


<The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.>

― Geoffrey Chaucer, The Parliament of Birds

>> Click here to see twinlark's game collections. Full Member

   twinlark has kibitzed 17571 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Aug-29-16 twinlark chessforum (replies)
twinlark: <Boomie> You may be interested in this take in three parts on the rise of takfiris and wahhabism and their role in sectarian politics: Part 1: Part 2: Part 3:
   Jul-12-16 Kenneth Rogoff (replies)
twinlark: <zanzibar> <Why use a robot (which is still serviceable, with the exception of its robotic arm)? In order to avoid the possibility of the gunman fighting through the wall, is the best I could come up with.> I can come up with other scenarios, including that they were ...
   Jun-07-16 Viktor Korchnoi (replies)
twinlark: R.I.P Grandmaster Viktor Lvovich Korchnoi. Your legacy will last as long as the great game itself.
   May-31-16 R Praggnanandhaa (replies)
twinlark: <offramp> Thanks.
   May-23-16 European Individual Championship (2016) (replies)
twinlark: <notyetagm: Top 23 wins invitations to the 2017 World Cup> Navara and possibly Wojtaszek might make it into the World Cup on the basis of ratings. If that is the case, then Ter-Sahakyan and Lupulescu might still qualify.
   May-16-16 keypusher chessforum (replies)
twinlark: <keypusher> You might be interested in this:
   May-07-16 Annie K. chessforum (replies)
twinlark: <<Also, are we still waiting for feedback from <twinlark>?> He seems to be busy, but we're in no hurry.> Sorry. I am actually on the job. I'll try to be quick.
   Apr-20-16 Big Pawn chessforum (replies)
twinlark: TF is coming here to return BP's back rubs. Carry on, guys. Always good to see a nice bromance.
   Apr-19-16 TheFocus chessforum (replies)
twinlark: I see you lads have formed a mutual admiration society. Let me leave this page so that you can enjoy each other in the privacy of this forum.
   Apr-17-16 Abdel Irada chessforum (replies)
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Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Boomie> I would like to call your attention to an excerpt in one of the articles linked to by <twinlark> above.

<On April 21 the Western and Gulf backed “High Negotiations Committee” announced they were quitting the Geneva negotiations. The next day, hundreds of mortars and bombs started being launched into western Aleppo from the zones controlled by Nusra and other terrorist groups. These bombs are powerful, wounding and killing indiscriminately. Syrian journalist Edward Dark noted that western media and groups such as MSF were silent on this even though hospitals were being hit, dozens of children and civilians killed. On twitter he reported day by day …..

— West Aleppo is simply being obliterated by rebel shelling. A city of 2 million people is being butchered.

— Carnage and devastation as ‘moderate rebel’ bombs fall on west Aleppo like rain.

— Terrorist rebel bombs are still falling like rain on west Aleppo. 15 people murdered at a mosque in Bab Faraj after Friday prayers.

— This is the hospital where my son was born. Dabeet Hospital in W.Aleppo completely destroyed by rebel shelling.

Has MSF denounced these killings and attacks on hospitals in western Aleppo?>

I've seen these kinds of reports in pro Syrian blogs and sites for the past four years. They consistently agree that these shelling have killed hundreds if not thousands of civilians (maybe a magnitude more than the occasional sensational suicide bombings) and have imposed a climate of terror in government controlled areas. This is especially true in Aleppo City, but it also occurs in other urban areas of Syria that can be targeted from adjacent jihadist controlled areas. The civilians basically have no idea when a jihadist 'hell cannon' is going to drop a lethal mortar on top of their heads. People from Syrian athletes, to reporters, to children have been terrorized and murdered in this manner.

It's not only MSF that avoids reporting it; nearly every MSM outlet ignores them.

Yet the jihadists are not only confessing to these regularly occurring murders, they often proudly upload videos of themselves into the internet firing mortars into civilian neighborhoods indiscriminately.

I'm pretty sure you are totally ignorant of this. Why? Because you limit your sources.

You could start with some of the sources <twinlark> gave above.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark>

A troubling development.

<There are no conceptual problems - both parties know what the score is. The US has communicated its right to violate Syrian airspace, and Russia has communicated its right to operate legally in Syrian airspace. This is part of the 'technical problem'. This will lead to collisions and an increase in bellicosity.

This is cause for great concern. Events are moving at a rapid pace, the fog of war is thick, and even the best geostrategic analysts fail to find consensus on the meaning and consequences of the Turkish moves in northern Syria, ostensibly against PKK linked YPG separatists.>

In brief, I think the US is warning Russian that if it dares to bomb invading Turkish troops, US will shoot down the RUAF bombers, notwithstanding US is in Syria illegally.

Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <visayanbraindoctor>

I saw that. Erdogan is still playing each end against the other. The US is betraying the Kurds (again! - when will they ever learn) to try and strengthen its frayed ties with Turkey, while Russia has to contemplate its next move.

I suspect that Russia is rueing its caution and restraint in Syria and probably Ukraine, as this has given Turkey and by extension the US, the room to annex part of Syria into Turkey. There is not much chance that Syria and Russia can regain the land that Turkey has taken, although Turkey must still be severely weakened by the recent purges.

The timing is interesting. This could have been done at any time, but why now? Is this locking in the future US President into a war that will keep arms manufacturers obscenely wealthy till the end of time? It is a strong push against Russia in the Middle east, and probably a forerunner of what is to come in Poland and Romania. One commentator likens the set up of Poland to a country turning into a suicide bomber.

By exactly the same token, it seems that Duterte is openly challenging China with the full knowledge that by treaty, the US is obliged to defend Philippines if it becomes embroiled in a military confict with China. Duterte strikes me as reckless in the extreme. This obscene war on drug dealers has killed thousands in a few weeks - how many of these were just ordinary drug users or people with little or no ties to organised drug crime. For the President to not only legitimise but to encourage extra-judicial killings by vigilantes strikes me as suicidally reckless...where does this end? Seems to me to be the most virulent social poison a politician can unleash on an unsuspecting polity and society.

The talk around diplomatic circles even before this development is not if US will start a war with China, but when.

The dogs of war may soon be let slip.

Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <Boomie>

One of the most uncompromising writers on the planet is Andre Vltchek, a globe trotting socialist, who quite fearlessly seeks to identify the West's wealth as being almost entirely due to centuries of genocide, slavery and exploitation.

The end of colonialism (apart from a few holdouts) did not signal the end of this process as the exploitative infrastructure installed by colonial powers remained in place when Western personnel withdrew to other climes, enabling an internal ruling class to take over the reins of exploitation. The cost of dismantling apartheid was for South Africa to abandon its dream of socialism and to remain plugged into the world economic system pretty much on an as is basis.

Anyway, Vltchek offers his opinion of how the West's exploitation of the rest of the world continues, no holds barred: If you can stomach that, here's his website: I'll unashamedly stand up here and cite him as one of my favorite writers.

It is a sobering reminder to recall that what we call Western Europe, constitutes, with the exception of a few mini-states, a cadre of former colonial powers: Britain, Netherlands, France (still a colonial power, still exerting its military might in Africa and the South Pacific), Germany, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, not to mention Italy, Spain and Portugal, all of whom have ample warm water ports from whence they launched their fleets of warships, privateers and commercial shipping to ensure that wealth continued to flow back from their former colonies.

It is also a sobering to note how the wealth of these countries is so heavily underpinned by these third world colonies - aided and abetted by Western investment and IMF and World Bank economic prescriptions - from within, and frequently enforced with US & UK militarism. <visayanbraindoctor> has spent much of his life struggling with the horrendous legacy of colonialism and internal colonialism in the Philippines so that it is an everyday clear and present reality in his life. All that while providing affordable neurological services and brain surgery for the poor, when he could be a millionaire in Manila or New York living off the fat of the world.

Let's respect the people whose sacrifices, both voluntary and involuntary, underwrite our opulent Western lifestyles and at least understand and acknowledge the cost to the world's people and environment of our wonderful luxurious lifestyles.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark> I try not to comment publicly on matters that directly concern my immediate environs. I just hope we don't end up in an idiotic war with China. It's easy to trigger; just a single large false flag against Philippine military personnel in the Spratly's, and then blame China for it. I've discussed this before in a previous post.
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Vitchek's assertions are fundamentally true. When the colonial powers colonized, they inevitably centralized an overseas colony. In our case, we got centralized in Manila. Provincial money and resources to Manila, then on to Spain. It happened for hundreds of years.

When the colonial powers left, the machinery remained- thus internal colonialism. Manila still rakes in tens of billions of pesos a year from the provinces.

The Spanish conquistadors called it tribute. Manila calls it taxes. I would like to call it by its real name- plunder.

It's made psychologically acceptable to provincial peoples by a malevolent quasi fascist nationalism, instilled into every school child from grade 1 up. You should hear the Panatang Makabayan (literally the Nationalist Oath which we were and are made to recite every day in elementary and high school); and all the school and media extremely nationalistic teachings and pronouncements. You can see the effects of this in some of my countrymen right in this very site.

The nationalistic creed in our schools and media have a singular effect- it justifies continuous horrendous plunder by the center, because we our 'one nation' and since capital and resources are seen as being transferred from one area (the provinces, fourth world, captive peoples, etc) to another (Metro Manila and the Tagalog Regions) in the same nation, then there's nothing wrong with it.

This is on of the legacies of the Europeans' historical colonialism. It occurs not only in the Philippines, but all over the third world. The third world nations have their provinces, the fourth world to exploit. Internal colonialism eternally and forevermore.

Visayans (Sugbuanons, Ilonggos, Warays, etc), Ilocanos, Kapampangas, Pangasinense, Bicolanos, and 150 other ethno linguistic peoples in the Philippines are captive peoples. August is the official culture-killing Buwan ng Wika- literally Month of the Language. Millions of schoolchildren all over the Philippines of are taught that they must speak Tagalog in order to be good Filipinos becasue it is the 'National Language'. They are forced to or they are fined by Filipino teachers for speaking in their non Tagalog ethnic tongue. Classic Pavlovian conditioning, speak Binisaya, get fined one peso- therefore stop speaking it, and hate your own ethno linguistic people. I would rather call it by its real name- Month of the Death of Our Languages and Peoples. At tabula rasa age, another generation of children have been taught to become self-hating Visayans.

In a war with China, drummed up by Manila based National media, which people are going to die? Most of the Philippine army lower ranks is made up of Visayans. Most of the Philippine marines lower ranks are made up of Ilocanos. Certainly not people from our center Metro Manila who love to warmonger against China. What can Visayans and Ilocanos do about it? Not a thing under the present Unitarian conditions of the state. They'll die for Manila's political games and nationalistic ideology. Thanks to state sponsored nationalism, they'll probably feel honored and proud about it too, that they die as true 'Filipinos'.

(Sorry for the rant in advance. Whenever I deeply think through of the quagmire we have sunk into, it can get pretty frustrating.)

Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <visayanbraindocotr>

I'm sorry for reopening these wounds and for mentioning your daily activities in the political context. My only justification is that sometimes we in the West need to be reminded of the ongoing cost of colonialism and its bastard child, neo-colonialism.

It's very difficult to deal with the ongoing colonialism and genocide here in Australia, although the latest incarnation of the latter are deaths in custody, the Northern Territory "intervention", dying languages, the ice epidemic, the latest round of the Stolen Generation and now yet another round of racist redneck Parliamentarians just elected as an expression of the Brexit/Trump phenomenon that seems to be sweeping the West and beyond.

No amount of reforms will work, lord knows enough people have tried, but there are always the morons that object because the see their share of the mythical "pie" diminish if a disadvantaged group gets more consideration and resources than previously, especially targeted programs.

The way the system works needs to change or be transformed.

Again, my apologies for overstepping the mark.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Regarding Vitchek's take in Islam, he is accurate in that part that US foreign policy makers have used it to further their ends. Ever since the Wahhabi Sauds took over Arabia in 1925, they have promoted their brand of Islam, which I now regard as a modern iteration of Kharijitism. The Kharijites were one of the first branches of Islam, together with the Sunnis and Shiites. The US oil companies made contact with newly independent Saudi Arabia in the 1920s, and relations have always been good from that time.

Then in the 1970s, Nixon made a pact with the Arab Gulf States to trade oil only in dollars. The petrodollar was born. The pact became a pillar. The petrodollar is one of the key means of influence and control of world geopolitics by the US.

Consequently US foreign policy and the Sauds' Wahhabi theology became further intertwined.

Unfortunately, by the way he writes, it seems clear to me that Vitchek has not read the Koran thoroughly. So he does not give a theological basis for some of the things he observes in Islam.

One, he mentions 'Socialist Islam'. IMO this has its roots in the Koran's repeated admonitions to do alms giving. Muslim societies always tends to have 'alms giving' or charitable individuals and organizations. Going up to the state level, we end up with 'Socialist Islam'.

Two, US foreign policy does not work in a vacuum. It is able to exploit Islam in a manner that can't be done with New Testament believing Christians. Vitchek probably isn't aware at all of the numerous violent passages in the Koran that directs the believer to do violence on unbelievers. Nearly every single act of violence of jihadists is done in accordance with specific Koranic passages. (This can't be done for strict NT believers specially in today's modern internet era because there isn't a single passage in the NT that directs the reader to do violence.) The Iranians are aware of these passages of course, and are probably pulling his leg when they say they can't recognize Wahabbi behavior as Islamic. If Shiites themselves aren't mindful, they fall into the same trap of eternal scripture directed violence- for instance the Assassins, who were the terror of medieval Islamic Western and Central Asian societies for hundreds of years until they got extirpated by the Mongols, were a Shiite sect, probably their theological iteration of the Kharijites.

How can this be solved theologically? IMO it's high time that appropriate Exegesis and Hermeneutics be done for these passages, but that's another topic.

All the above are just my speculations of course.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark> No apology needed. I'm just more irritable than usual during August, the Month of the Language, when the Manila based Department of Education and the National Language Commission works overtime to kill off our ethno linguistic identities.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Boomie: <visayanbraindoctor>

This may be of small comfort to you, but recall that a more repressive and infinitely more powerful government tried and failed to force a language on its citizens. The Stalinists worked at it for about 10 years and finally realized it was a waste of effort. Hopefully Manila will eventually realize the hopelessness of their draconian attempts.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Boomie: Many of these conflicts between Muslims are continuations of the 1000 year old struggle between Sunni and Shia. The Sunni Saudis are battling the Shia Houthis. ISIS is fighting Shia everywhere, including the Alawite Shia who leads Syria. Europeans had a couple hundred years of conflicts between Catholics and Protestants. Someone new to the Earth might conclude that religions breed conflict.

Krishnamurti spoke at the United Nations under the auspices of the Catholic group Pacem In Terris. He told them exactly what they didn't want to hear. He said that no organization can bring about peace in the world. Peace arises from individuals who are at peace with themselves.

Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <Boomie>

You may be interested in this take in three parts on the rise of takfiris and wahhabism and their role in sectarian politics:

Part 1:

Part 2:

Part 3:

Look at it in conjunction with the following:

Note the tenor of the comments and reviews.

You'll notice the British role in resuscitating a sect that almost died out a couple of centuries as too much for the rest of Islam to stomach, the Wahhabis now risen to become the House of Saud. It is another version of the old story of divide and rule.

The US role in creating and supporting Al Qaeda, ISIS and the other jihadi tools to further its imperial agenda in Western Asia and increasingly beyond in the Russian Caucasus, China and Central Asia is simply a continuation of this process.

I have no reason to contradict <visayanbraindoctor>'s assertion about the exhortation to violence in passages in the Koran, something that is a useful tool for manipulating the extremists as imperial catspaws. It's worth noting however that while the New Testament may not contain similar exhortations to violence, the Old Testament certainly does, and that is the larger part of the Bible.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark>

I would like to request that you delete my rant above.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Boomie> Thanks for your sympathy.

However, the evil that is imposed on us is of an institutional nature, not individual. In other words it is an evil occurring in the state level, not the individual level. It can't be solved by turning the individual implementors of the evil into good angels. It will continue as long as the social structure that supports it remains unmodified.

The individual tax collector may be of noble goodly disposition, but that does not prevent the center from plundering the peripheries of tens of billions of pesos yearly, through these angelic tax collectors. The resulting evil is quite palpable- you see families living on rice and salt, and impoverished patients dying like flies in the public hospitals because they can't afford to buy meds.

Where is the evil localized? In the individual tax collectors who lead individually good upright lives? No. It's in the Unitarian nature of the state.

Another example that you might be more familiar with. US historically had slavery. If you assume slavery to be 'evil', where was the evil localized? In the individual slave owners? Were they all individually evil?

No. The fault lay in the social system, in the social institution of slavery.

I hope you get what I mean.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Boomie>

I think you should read this.

<US Senator: "We Have Never Done Anything More Loathsome or Despicable Than What We're Doing in Syria.">

< Senator Richard Black and Janice Kortkamp discuss the shameful situation in Syria, where the US government is actively arming and funding Al Nusra (Al Qaeda) and "conduits" ("moderates"), blending them together, and then using this model to exterminate the Syrian population.

It should be noted that the mass media machine is seemingly losing its effect, as more and more prominent and senior figures (e.g Robert Fisk) are calling a spade a spade, or a "moderate" a terrorist. It just goes to show that you can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all of the time.>

Your MSM has ben lying to you and deceiving you in politically loaded matters for a long time, perhaps since your birth.

I do hope you begin reading alternative sources.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Boomie: Many of these conflicts between Muslims are continuations of the 1000 year old struggle between Sunni and Shia. The Sunni Saudis are battling the Shia Houthis. ISIS is fighting Shia everywhere, including the Alawite Shia who leads Syria.>

On the face of it while what you are saying is true, US foreign policy has taken advantage of the historical Sunni - Shiite rivalry, fueling it into the explosion that we see now. Although there were indeed incidients in the past, for most of history, Sunnis and Shiite were not warring each other the way they are doing now. I believe that US Foreign Policy has manipulated them in into their present war. This would not have happened without UK and US.

You might want to read up on Wahhabism. Better yet, read the Koran and comprehend it word for word. You'll see exactly how passages from it are being followed literally by jihadists and give you an idea how this literal interpretation is being exploited by US Foreign Policy.

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark: It's worth noting however that while the New Testament may not contain similar exhortations to violence, the Old Testament certainly does, and that is the larger part of the Bible.>

This is already a theological discussion, but you might as well be aware of it.


Many early Christians wanted to delete the Old Testament from the list of sacred scripture, and stick only to the NT. Why? Precisely because of the violent passages found in the OT. They believed that the God of the OT, an angry and jealous God, was different from the God of the NT, a loving hopeful God.

In the end the Bishops agreed to retain the OT and evicted or excommunicated those who wanted to delete it from their community. However, it remains that many NT passages do invalidate the teachings and attitude of the OT. You won't hear your local priest or pastor saying this loud, because it sounds like compartmentalized thinking. For instance, NT passages invalidate the OT's talion law and the food laws, and frowns on divorce.

In brief, the ethics of the OT differs far greatly from that of the NT. If you don't like the idea of having two different Gods in the OT and NT, it still remains that their ethics and attitudes differ so greatly they could be regarded as polar opposites.

What we get is that for most of history Christian culture generally have followed only the NT when it comes to ethics. Consequently, laws in predominantly Christian countries are ethically based on NT teachings, not OT ones.


Most theological books don't mention the nature of violence in the OT, perhaps because their NT believing Christian authors are uncomfortable with discussing violence. Here is my point.

Violence in the OT is mainly retrograde in nature. In other words, in passages where there is violence, the violence has already occurred. Most of these passages are actually narratives about something in the past- a war, a conflict, a murder, a robbery, an injustice.

You could confirm this for yourself. Try looking for a passage in the OT wherein God orders the reader in the present time to go kill a person.

(BTW, if you find such passages, I would like to know about them. I'm trying to form a collection of these.)

On the other hand, the nature of violence in the Koran is that much of it is orthograde. God orders the readers to slay the unbelievers in the present. It can easily be read by fundamentalist as 'still to happen'. It's not just a narrative of something in the past. It's something to be implemented in the future.

So there is a great deal of different in the nature of violence in the OT and the Koran.

Not a problem in the NT. I've read it word for word- there isn't single passage in all of the NT books that orders the readers to commit violence.

I've also read the Buddhist Dhammapda. It's like the NT (or is it the other way around?) No direct command to the reader to do violence.

I've also read the Bhagavad-gita. It resembles the OT on the topic of violence. It narrates a violent war that happened in the past. Sri Krishna tells Arjuna that it is justified to slay his evil relatives. But this was in the war in the past. You don't have Sri Krishna telling the present day reader to kill people.

Contrast sayings in the Koran such as 'If they abandon the cause slay them,' 'after the sacred months are over, seek the idolaters and slay them wherever you find them,' 'God has promised paradise to those who slay and are slain for his cause,' etc. These are written in the form of orthograde commands to the present day reader.

The uncompromising orthograde nature of these violent passages is the reason why I think they should be subjected to intensive Exegesis and Hermeneutics. You do know of individual Christian fundamentalists who take the word of the Bible literally? Imagine what they'll do if the NT has a saying that God has promised them paradise if they slay and are slain for their religion. Imagine what they would do if they had a trigger finger on nukes.

I hope this helps. but it's still best for you to read all of these Scriptures personally, and try comprehending them word for word.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Boomie: Thanks for all the links, guys. I've read/viewed all of them. I have a few quibbles with the material, but nothing too important.

The writing is quite good, which is encouraging to read more. Plausible theories abound but there is a lack of scholarship, for example, no references.

Some statements are made without any attempt to corroborate them. For example, "Iraq was forced to invade Kuwait..." OK. That should at least warrant an explanation or footnote.

Or paraphrasing "The US supported ISI/ISIS/ISIL." Then why did they kill or capture 80% of their leadership? Such declarations require more background less they appear ridiculous.

But I only had a couple of such double takes. The articles stimulated me to run to references to learn more.

The history of Wahhabism is interesting. After the Ottomans squashed the Saud/Wahhabi state, it retreated to a tiny area in the outback. Unfortunately, the Ottomans didn't think finishing the job was worth the trouble. As the Ottomans grew weaker, the Saudis grew stronger. The Brits were probably stirring the pot there but so far I haven't found any history of their involvement with the sect. It sounds like their modus operandi, though.

Thanks again, for the posts and links. Trying to make sense out that chaos is becoming a hobby of mine.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Boomie: <visayanbraindoctor: However, the evil that is imposed on us is of an institutional nature, not individual.>

Point well taken. Institutions and governments come and go, but certain truths about human nature endure. Being an incurable optimist about the (perhaps far too distant) future, I have faith in the power of the individual who has made peace with himself.

Nelson Mandela comes to mind as such a man in our lifetime. And Gandhi, of course. These seemingly powerless men changed the course of history for the better using only the power of their love.

The task is not to change the hearts of others. It is to change our own to let the healing energy of peace flow. That is my understanding of what Gandhi and Mandela accomplished and what Krishnamurti was trying to teach. I say trying because he was so intellectually rigorous that few understood.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Boomie: <visayanbraindoctor: Try looking for a passage in the OT wherein God orders the reader in the present time to go kill a person.

(BTW, if you find such passages, I would like to know about them. I'm trying to form a collection of these.)>

The "Battle" of Jericho is clearly a war crime. Archaeologists have determined that Jericho was a soft target. Joshua had trained his army and decided to "blood" them with an easy target. So everyone in Jericho was slaughtered.

Before the "Battle":

Joshua 6:2

"Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men."

Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Boomie>

Your post above is a bit off tangent to my post. I think you are missing my point.

You will see <Jericho> examples all over the OT, and for that matter in the Koran and the Hindu sacred Scriptures. Which is precisely my point, it is a case of retrograde violence. The Jews of that time were engaged in a war. They described the war, past tense. including all the violence they did, which happens in nearly all wars.

Which Krishnamurti are you referring to? U. G. Krishnamurti?

If you read Bhagavad gita, which I'm sure Krishnamurti did, Arjuna slaughtered his relatives, probably extirpating them. I'm sure that he must have committed a 'war crime' or two, as it was norm at that time to slay or execute rival aristocracy.

My post above is about retrograde vs orthograde violence in sacred scripture.

I hope you re-read my post above.

BTW, if you are so interested in Krishnamurti, IMO it would benefit you greatly to read Bhagavad-gita. It's about as long as the NT or the Koran. I found it easier to read than the NT and the Koran.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Annie K.: Just what I can remember off the cuff:
Exodus 22:18
Leviticus 20:10
Deuteronomy 22:23
Premium Chessgames Member
  Boomie: <visayanbraindoctor>

Oops. You are looking for examples where God instructs devotees today to do violence. That doesn't ring a bell offhand. I'll have to let that one percolate for a while.

The K in question was Jiddu Krishnamurti. He was the Theosophists chosen one. They schooled him in the mystic arts as they understood them. About 7 years after finding him, he disbanded them. He realized that everyone had to discover things for themselves. He expressed this with "Truth is a pathless land." In one stroke he repudiated all religions. Self styled gurus and their disciples came to him, perhaps looking for a loophole. But he held his ground from that point on. He also discarded philosophies, governments, and organizations in regards to finding the truth. He had one of the most remarkable lives of the 20th century and his bio is worth a look.

Here he is with Tibetan guru Chogyam Trungpa to explain what meditation means to him. Trungpa wrote a lot of great books on Buddhism and meditation. He was one of the most significant Buddhist teachers who came to the US.

K's method is unique as far as I know. He approaches each topic with a clean slate. No matter how many times he discussed it in the past, he always ignores the past and starts anew.

Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <vbd: Many early Christians wanted to delete the Old Testament from the list of sacred scripture, and stick only to the NT. Why? Precisely because of the violent passages found in the OT. They believed that the God of the OT, an angry and jealous God, was different from the God of the NT, a loving hopeful God.>

Got some numbers of "many early Christians"? If not, you're just using a self selected group to cherry pick a debate point, a technique you use quite extensively.

Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: <vbd: I think you should read this. >

<US Senator: "We Have Never Done Anything More Loathsome or Despicable Than What We're Doing in Syria.">

Found one out of a 100 who holds your opinion, cite it, cherry picker's delight. I shan't call you out every time, there's not enough hours in the day, but I have to agree totally with <Boomie> on your ideologue tendencies.

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