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twinlark
Member since Nov-17-05
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My wrap of our Chessgames Challenge: The World vs A Nickel, 2006 against ICCF Grandmaster Arno Nickel is at User: World Team Tribute.

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<The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.>

― Geoffrey Chaucer, The Parliament of Birds

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"What we’re seeing are the puppets’... shadows jumping all over the screen. ...sometimes the puppets move in a seemingly incoherent fashion. But the puppet master is always in control, moving them, giving them voice, in a rational fashion vis-a-vis his plot for the play. The wise old Prussian, Clausewitz, wrote that war is conducted for a reason ie it has certain aims and objectives. The conduct of war may appear chaotic but war, any war, is conducted for a rational end.

So to come back to the shadow play, what’s the best way to stop a bad — and potentially deadly one for all of us — shadow play? Why, talk to the puppet master of course and tell him in no uncertain terms that he’s in the play too." - Basil @ http://thesaker.is/rex-tillerson-me...

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>> Click here to see twinlark's game collections.

Chessgames.com Full Member

   twinlark has kibitzed 18078 times to chessgames   [more...]
   Oct-16-17 jessicafischerqueen chessforum (replies)
 
twinlark: Hi Jess I assume you've seen the classic 1971 Aussie movie <Wake in Fright>, which quite literally frightened Australia about a less-than-romantic look at the outback. The original had Donald Pleasence, John Meillon, Gary Bond, Dawn Lake, Chips Rafferty and a few others... ...
 
   Oct-15-17 twinlark chessforum (replies)
 
twinlark: <visayanbraindoctor> <I wonder if the Catalonians remember their region's old Anarchist movements.> They almost certainly do. Its tradition of autonomy had to lead inexorably to the strong anarchist tradition that is at the heart of their culture. <In fact, I haven't
 
   Oct-09-17 Kenneth S Rogoff (replies)
 
twinlark: <A learning experience.> I guess rape would be a learning experience, albeit of the worst kind. Anyway, cheers. I'm back to my den. Any who dare are welcome there. Unless I turf them out.
 
   Oct-03-17 Anton Smirnov
 
twinlark: Well done, Grandmaster Anton Smirnov.
 
   Sep-18-17 Oluwafemi Balogun
 
twinlark: Balogun would probably need to compete on the European circuit to significantly improve his chess, as Africa's top players Bassem Amin and Ahmed Adly have been doing with great success.
 
   Sep-05-17 Phiona Mutesi
 
twinlark: <alexrawlings> Well said. I loved the movie as well, but had to smile at the scene where she shows her mother the house they moved into out of the Katwe slums. It's a recursive subplot, because she was able to buy the house from the proceeds of the money she received from ...
 
   Jul-24-17 Vugar Gashimov (replies)
 
twinlark: Let's raise our glasses to commemorate the 31st anniversary of the birth of the late great Grandmaster Vugar Gashimov: To Gashimov and to his legacy: his great games. He was also a really nice guy.
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 353 OF 353 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-28-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <sonia91>

Done, but some of the footnotes are a bit of a mess. Someone else was trying to work on the bio at the same time, so I'll get back to it in due course and try and straighten out the citings.

Sep-30-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <The assassination of Lieutenant General Valery Asupov in the command centre near Deir ez-Zor by ISIS using US intel marks another qualitative escalation in aggression toward Russia by the US as its policy in the area is dismantled>

US intel precisely monitors Asapov's movements and then provides the exact coordinates. ISIS lobs a mortar on top of his head.

Brilliant (irony). There's no way for the Russians to prove that Asapov was the victim of a targeted assassination. Yet in the shady underground of the wetwork world, the Russians do know that US military and intel agents are giving them the finger.

Asapov Russian sources say was the first Russian lieutenant general to be killed in action since WW2. By all accounts, he was also a very proficient, effective, and combat-experienced officer, respected and beloved of his men. He had been active in every war of the Russian Federation since the fall of the USSR, and suffered from a permanent limp from wounds incurred in the first Chechen war. A genuine soldier's general. Boy, but his killing is going to hurt and anger Russian feelings.

What if such a thing were to happen to an American lieutenant general (although the possibility must be slim as American generals usually do not work so close to the front)? I just can imagine the uproar in the MSM.

Again I doubt if Trump was aware of this insanity, just as he was not aware of the attempt to kidnap more than two dozen Russian MPs. I await to see the next insane event.

Oct-01-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <visayanbraindoctor>

<the attempt to kidnap more than two dozen Russian MPs>

I missed that. Do you have a link?

Oct-01-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: Yes I already did.

<A key part of the plan was to capture 29 Russian soldiers, which would have been a major embarrassment for Russia.>

http://russia-insider.com/en/milita...

Translation: Someone in the US military or intel agencies decided to kidnap 29 Russian soldiers. These were military police in charge of monitoring the ceasefire in the 'de-escalation zone'.

I've learned that the words 'capture', 'nab', 'arrest', 'kidnap', 'abduct' can essentially mean the same thing, just differ in perspective.

For instance, Palestinian Arab militants often 'kidnap' or 'abduct' Israeli servicemen. Israeli soldiers/ police 'arrest' Palestinian militants (or their relatives and sympathizers). Rarely the 'hostages' get executed, murdered, or disappeared. More often the 'prisoners' get exchanged. Thus we often read of the Israeli government freeing Palestinian 'prisoners' in exchange for Israeli 'hostages'. (If one reads Arab blogs, one notices immediately that their writers often regard Palestinian prisoners of the Israeli military or police as kidnapped hostages.)

I read that several months ago there was a power struggle in Idlib among Islamists. AlNusra (which has changed its name again into Tahrir al-Sham and is supported by the Sauds) 'arrested' most of the commanders of Ahrar al-Sham (which Syrians claim is mostly supported by Turkey and Qatar). Tahrir al-Sham basically absorbed or eliminated Ahrar al-Sham and other rival Islamist groups. No doubt that from the perspective of Ahrar al-Sham, its commanders got 'kidnapped'.

Semantics aside, it seems that a lobby group in the US high leadership has decided to up the game by physically targeting Russian servicemen in Syria. First by the attempt to 'capture' the Russian military policemen. Now by the targeted assassination of a Russian general. It's a stupidly dangerous game, since it invites the Russians to respond with violence on American servicemen in Syria.

Oct-02-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark: Russia has also passed legislation that will require, after an 18 month phasing in period, all transactions in Russian ports to be conducted in rubles, which will serve to stabilise the ruble in the long term, and further weaken the dollar as the world's reserve country.>

Much has been said of the fiat petrodollar. This is the simplest way that I can explain its role. (Correct me if I am wrong.)

Philippines wants to buy 50 thousand pesos worth of oil from an Arab nation.

Arab nation refuses to accept pesos, only US dollars.

Philippines exchanges its 50 thousand pesos for 1000 dollars (current exchange rate 50 pesos = 1 dollar).

US prints 1000 fiat dollars. Gives it to Philippines for 50 thousand pesos.

Philippines uses the 1000 fiat petrodollars to buy its oil. US now has obtained 50 thousand pesos. US can use this 50 thousand pesos to buy real goods from the Philippines, such as rice, sugar, mango, etc..

US did not do appropriate 'work' (produce goods and services) in order to procure the above rice, sugar, mango. It just printed paper dollars out of thin air.

Same thing applies for other countries that wish to buy oil.

Oct-02-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: Not just the petrodollar, although this buttresses the system. Most money is created out of thin air at a keystroke, it's "value" sustained by the petrodollar.
Oct-03-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: I can't say I was a believer in Catalonia's cause for secession, as it's reasoning was the typical spuriousness you get from the richer parts of a country feeling like they are subsidising the rest. In Australia we went through this with Western Australia which voted to secede in 1932, but was basically ignored both by the Brits and by the local feds.

It's a pity Madrid and its idiot Prime Minister, and even more idiotic King, did not learn the lesson of respect and moderation. Here is an opinion which nicely sums it up both for the interlocutor, and by adoption, myself:

<As a Canadian who is not of French ancestery nor lives in Quebec, I find the behaviour of the Madrid government incomprehensible. Let the people have their non-binding, unconstitutional referendum.

Most of the voters would not have voted for secession if the Madrid government had shown some tolerance, and patience in putting forth logical arguments for why it would be better to be a autonomous part of Spain than an independent state. All they had to do was show their own people some respect.

Even had the Catalans voted for independence after that, and declared it, they would have had difficulty being recognized given that it is uncontitutional to divide Spain, and the Madrid government had been reasonable.

Now, that the Madrid government has done its best fascist impression in violently interfering in 2-5 million peoples’ desire to express themselves in a peaceful democratic referendum, it would be justifiable for the Catalans to seceed, and for others to recognize their independence, however misguided I think this would be. It is clear the the Madrid government has zero respect for its own people in Catalonia. Hence, it is justifiable for those people to go their own way.

Brussels needs to help negotiate an amicable divorce, or at least provide some useful marriage counselling. A mediator is required.>

- Commentator "Blue" under this article: http://thesaker.is/catalonia-two-op...

I seem to recall that there was no referendum, illegal or otherwise, in Kosovo that justified secession - one that was recognised by most of the world - let alone occupation by US military forces.

Oct-03-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WannaBe: At least, Scotland's vote to leave U.K. was peaceful, funny how European countries became 'united' during/after the late 1800s (e.g. Italy, Germany) and the concept of nationalism are now falling apart.

Back to the ol' Kingdom days? Bavaria, Catalan, Scotland, Wales, Saxony?

Oct-03-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <Wannabe>

It shouldn't devolve back into kingdoms as such, more like corporate fiefdoms masked by nominally secular democracies. Small independent countries don't really exist except on paper.

Only larger countries can resist corporate dominance, but the downside is that if a larger country has experienced corporate capture, that power is transferred to the corporates away from the nominal state.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <Catalonia>

Appropos to my earlier post about Catalonian secessionism...I realise that the forces at work both inside Spain and Catalonia on the one hand, and in the outside world make for a complex issue, whose roots can be traced to the formation of the Spanish State itself at the time of Columbus, but also and especially to the Spanish Civil war, and to the Franco years and their aftermath.

Seems to me that the turning point came a few years ago, around 2011, when the autonomy agreed to for Catalonia in the wake of Franco's demise was effectively overruled by the Spanish High Court, awakening barely dormant grievances of some Catalans towards Madrid, those grievances erupting from reaction to Catalonia's newly determined subservience to the Spanish State.

Nevertheless, the whole issue might well have bubbled along had Madrid treated the Catalonian secessionist sentiments in a low key manner, simply declaring the referendum illegal (as it was) and then ignoring the outcome, albeit at the same time broadening dialogue between Madrid and Barcelona. Spain is effectively a federation, and seems it must balance and mollify its respective regions.

Comments and observations that might shed more light on this murky and potentially dangerous situation would be most welcome.

Oct-10-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: It'll be interesting to see if the big pro-unity turnout by Catalonians will discourage the local government from declaring secession.

It'd have to be a given that for secession to succeed, it would have to have the backing of a significant majority of the population, and this does not appear to be the case.

Spain's gung ho PM isn't helping matters to a constructive conclusion with his threats.

Let sanity prevail.

Oct-10-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark> You probably know well that I've made extensive studies on movements such as the one in Catalonia. I've drawn the following conclusions.

1. In every such case, the peripheral region (or province as it's more commonly called) was the victim of colonialism (external or internal), and was fleeced economically for decades or centuries.

2. In many of such cases, the peripheral region has had a history of being once politically independent (or at least had a significant degree of autonomy) from its center, and that there is a lingering cultural memory among some of its inhabitants of this.

3. In many of such cases, there are different ethnolinguistic peoples living in the peripheral region whose identities are being forcibly assimilated by the center.

4. Once the center uses military or police powers to try and stamp out such nascent movements, the immediate effect is to polarize the peoples of the peripheral region. Once that occurs, the center really has to go full steam into crushing the pro-autonomy movement. If the center fails to try or tries and fails, the pro-autonomy movement will tend to grow.

Without these elements, most peripheral peoples seem content that they are living in a mere province.

In case of Catalonia, all four of the above elements are active. Not only that, it seems that Madrid's recent policies in the past few decades have polarized the Catalan youth. Most of the older generation of Catalans AFAIK from my readings are in fact pro-Madrid. It's the generations 50 and below that are most avidly pro-independent.

Some more notes on the differences of perspective.

1. The term 'independence' and 'secession' are two sides of the same coin. From the point of view of the peripheral region, once they succeed, it's 'independence'. From the point of view of the center, it's always 'secession.'

2. As Schumacher said, history is replete with provinces wanting to secede from their center. No center has ever wanted to secede from its provinces.

3. The center's language or dialect is the psychological grease that facilitates the peripheral people's acceptance of internal colonialism. Individuals that are against any form of decentralism are almost always the same ones that wholeheartedly promote the center's language; and those that want to preserve the local language are 99% pro-autonomy of some sort. Once a peripheral people abandons its language, it's already on its way to extinction and any thought of independence. But not always. As long as economic internal colonialism exists, the possibility of peripheral dissent festers.

(Example of an exception: The Irish independence movement of the late 19th century. Irish Gaelic was essentially a dead language. But London's internal colonialism and economic exploitation of the Irish people made them revive the dead language.)

4. The question of the institution of the nation-state as birthed by Napoleonic France based on the one language one nation concept, and internal colonialism, will probably be one of the major issues and movers of history a hundred years from now. (If humanity doesn't nuke itself back into the stone age first.)

Regarding Catalonian history, I've read that the Spanish crown's policy in Catalonia for centuries was assimilation- that is killing off the Catalan language and converting all its people into proper Castilians. This begs the question: Why does the Catalan language still exist?

AFAIK it's because for centuries the local Catholic clergy in Catalonia insisted on using Catalan in their sermons, rituals, and writings. This practice gave enough social status to the Catalan language such that its people never abandoned it.

I have no contacts with people in Catalonia, nor do I know of any survey. However, I would bet that the pro-Madrid individuals are mostly the same as the ones that accept or promote Castilian in Catalonia, while those that are avidly pro-independent are same ones that promote Catalan as the official language in their region.

Oct-12-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <visayanbraindoctor>

I must admit to being a little confused by claims and counter-claims on all sides of the issue of Catalonian independence/secession. So I did a small amount of preliminary research online, starting with wiki to understand the evolution of the issue.

I'll address what I've found to date in the context of your post so that we can augment and amend our discussion and findings as we go along. I found it a fascinating subject to research as Catalonia has played some pivotal roles in European and therefore world history over the last millennium or so.

But first some preliminary notes:

- all of the Iberian languages - and there are many - apart from Basque, are Romance languages that have descended from the Roman occupation that wound up in 450 or so. The earlier Iberian languages were largely extinguished by the turn of the first millennium.

- The Visigoths overran Iberia for a century or two before the Muslims pushed them out

- the Franks set up a heavily militarised buffer of self governing counties in the northwest of the peninsula around 800AD to keep the Muslim armies at bay.

- this area consequently developed a distinctive culture and the seeds of what we see as an autonomous region with its own language germinated at this time. A consistent theme from this period has been Catalan autonomy or (very occasionally) lack of it, although this is also true to a certain extent of the other regions apart from Castile for obvious reasons.

<1. In every such case, the peripheral region (or province as it's more commonly called) was the victim of colonialism (external or internal), and was fleeced economically for decades or centuries.>

Not sure this applies consistently to Catalonia, if at all. One thing that became clear was that as Catalonia emerged as a cultural entity in the tenth century, its autonomy was usually something of a given. Its merger with Aragon was beneficial as it became part of a significant and wealthy maritime power in the Mediterranean, centred on Barcelona. Catalonia has remained a relatively rich area to the present time although the Catalan Revolt in the 17th century was caused in part by Castille wanting to share the cost of the Spanish empire with the other provinces .

Catalonia backed the loser in the War of the Spanish Succession and in revenge for it changing its support from him, Philip V stripped Catalonia of its autonomy and laws were imposed with centralizing measures, including the use of Spanish in legal documentation all over Spain. I think this was the first time Catalan language was even indirectly suppressed although Castilian became the more prestigious language to learn and speak after the union created by the marriage of Ferdinand and Isabella in the 15th century. Yet in spite of this, Catalonia was the first region to industrialise, and is still the most industrialised area of Spain.

Even during Franco’s rule which engaged in political, cultural and linguistic restrictions, the ban on Catalan language was never total, and nor was the economy of Catalonia fleeced. On the contrary it continued to flourish.

On the balance of what I have found in the Wikipedia Bible, I would have to say this first condition probably doesn’t apply, regardless of Catalonian secessionists considering that Catalonia is getting insufficient return for the taxes taken from the region. This is a typical complaint registered by the richer regions of countries that have been formed by amalgamation. Western Australia is a typical example, voting to secede in 1932 by a three to one margin. California has also expressed secessionist tendencies.

Oct-12-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: (continued)

<2. In many of such cases, the peripheral region has had a history of being once politically independent (or at least had a significant degree of autonomy) from its center, and that there is a lingering cultural memory among some of its inhabitants of this.>

We’re on much former ground here, especially given the unconscionable behaviour of the Rajov’s PP government in Madrid, a spiritual descendant of Franco’s regime.

But first I think it is worth noting that Catalonia merged with Aragon, and it was Aragon's unification with Castille that birthed the Spanish State in the 15th century, as well as the Spanish Empire that emanated from the peninsula.

Catalonia has enjoyed varying degrees of autonomy during is thousand year history, apart from the two centuries following the War of Spanish Secession. Even in this case, it did well economically and its independent spirit was nurtured in the 19th and 20th centuries. Franco’s brutal suppression of Catalonian autonomy has clearly left a strong mark on the heart of republican/communist/anarchist Spain. His demise in 1975 freed Catalonia from its shackles and Catalonian’s happily signed the compact of autonomy in 1978 which was approved by referendum in 2006. However, the PP and other anti-autonomy interests took the matter to the Constitutional Court which nullified many of its provisions in 2011, strongly fanning resentment and secessionist/independence sentiments in Catalonia.

Madrid’s heavy handed tactics in sending in the police to brutalise voters has played badly. The large unity demonstrations no doubt promoted President Puigdemont to make hedge on Catalonia’s declaration of independence, intending no doubt to use it and secessionist sentiments as negotiating leverage with Madrid. Rajov however has simply responded with another heavy handed threat, demanding that the Catalonian Government clarify within five days whether it will secede, and if it does not meet that deadline, or declares independence, will suspend the operation of the Catalonian Parliament. IN other words, do as we say or we crush you…the EU has been strangely quiet.

This criterion is fully met.

<3. In many of such cases, there are different ethnolinguistic peoples living in the peripheral region whose identities are being forcibly assimilated by the center.>

I don’t think this is the case any longer in Catalonia. Even Madrid is not threatening assimilation, not directly anyway. Catalan is a co-official language of Spain in the region, while Occitan is a co-official language in Catalonia. As you can see from the linked webpage at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langu..., Castilian Spanish is the universal language of the country, while other languages including Catalan are co-official to Castillian in their native regions, in common with other Spanish languages such as Galician and Basque.

I don’t think this criterion applies in this case. Apart from Basque, all Spanish languages are Romance languages and their existence is either co-official or unofficial, but generally respected afaik.

< 4. Once the center uses military or police powers to try and stamp out such nascent movements, the immediate effect is to polarize the peoples of the peripheral region. Once that occurs, the center really has to go full steam into crushing the pro-autonomy movement. If the center fails to try or tries and fails, the pro-autonomy movement will tend to grow.>

Unfortunately, Madrid has made this an unsavoury and completely unnecessary reality, trying to extinguish a small fire with a large tank of gasoline. Madrid is determined to crush Catalonia’s secession movements, when it could have easily ignored it or simply opened negotiations with the Catalan government. This does not seem to be happening, and there will be conflict, maybe even a bloody one, perpetrated by Madrid and brokered by the EU and the US.

< Most of the older generation of Catalans AFAIK from my readings are in fact pro-Madrid.> Why would this be? The older generations remember the Franco years, and how savagely repressive they were in respect of Catalonia. One would expect that long tradition of autonomy to be ingrained especially into the older generation. The younger generation would have learned both languages and been part of what essentially has been a peacefully united Spain, bothered more by the austerity demands of the EU than by cultural assimilation or repression.

Anyway, if these notes differ from your opinions, that not to say I disagree with your findings. Just that I would like to learn more about this situation because, as unbelievable as it sounds, Catalonian secession threatens not only the integrity of the Spanish state but could deal a death blow to the all ready wobbly EU, which in turn would change the world order.

Clearly Catalonia is some kind of political flashpoint.

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark> Wow that was a rather comprehensive summary. You probably know more about Spain than most of us that were former provincials of the old Spanish Empire.

<Yet in spite of this, Catalonia was the first region to industrialise, and is still the most industrialised area of Spain.

Even during Franco’s rule which engaged in political, cultural and linguistic restrictions, the ban on Catalan language was never total, and nor was the economy of Catalonia fleeced. On the contrary it continued to flourish.>

Perhaps the more appropriate description is that <it continued to flourish despite Madrid>.

If Catalonia succeeds in becoming independent, I have no doubt that it's economy will further flourish. Many Catalans probably believe this, which is one reason for the move for independence.

In the case of Philippine regions, one sees the same phenomenon in Cebu. Cebu is a relatively rich province compared to others. Cebu is economically flourishing despite the Manila government, even if is being 'fleeced'. Cebu would undoubtedly flourish even more if it becomes more autonomous. Many educated Cebuanos are vaguely aware of this with the effect that Cebu as a whole consistently wants more autonomy.

Often it is the wealthier (and usually more educated) province that desires more autonomy. Human nature dictates that they want to be wealthier, and they also resent the center's control over their economy. Why the hell do we pay taxes to Manila (or Madrid) when we could be richer if we keep all of them?

<Even Madrid is not threatening assimilation, not directly anyway. Catalan is a co-official language of Spain in the region, while Occitan is a co-official language in Catalonia.>

True enough, but I imagine from the point of view of a Catalan, he would be happier if Castilians also learned Catalan, so that those visiting Catalonia would readily be able to speak it instead of the native Catalans always being forced to speak Castilian to the visitors.

The way that this problem could be partially solved is by teaching language electives in Madrid and the Castilian regions. Castilians would also learn some Catalan. As of now, when Castilians land in Catalonia, they generally continue speaking in Castilian, which Catalonians might deem as being high-bearing. A few would even think: 'We are this land's natives. Why are we treated as second class citizens by being forced to speak in Castilian to Castilian visitors? You should be the ones to speak in Catalan.'

I think this is one of the main reasons why former USSR non Russian republics carry such a heavy negative baggage on the Russian language. For centuries, Russians could just enter their lands and it would be the natives that would be forced to speak Russian. The natives essentially became foreigners in their own lands.

The above phenomenon is difficult to comprehend among monolingual speaking peoples. It just doesn't enter the calculus.

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <twinlark> It might interest you to know that the word in most Philippine languages for the Spanish language and Spaniards is 'Katsila'. Which is our way of pronouncing 'Castilian'.

This indicates that during the Spanish colonial era, our native peoples had a cultural knowledge that most Spaniards in the Philippines were actually Castilians, or spoke Castilian Spanish. (Not Catalan, Occipitan, or Basque.)

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: << Most of the older generation of Catalans AFAIK from my readings are in fact pro-Madrid.> Why would this be? The older generations remember the Franco years, and how savagely repressive they were in respect of Catalonia. One would expect that long tradition of autonomy to be ingrained especially into the older generation. The younger generation would have learned both languages and been part of what essentially has been a peacefully united Spain, bothered more by the austerity demands of the EU than by cultural assimilation or repression.>

I could be mistaken of course. I got the idea from an old 1990s national geographic article on Catalonia.

Regarding the Catalonians' bilingualism, I believe that they have been bilingual for centuries, in Catalan and Castilian.

However, I seem to get the idea, and also other language activists from my NGO, on reading the internet that it is the younger generations of Catalonians that are quite vigorous in pushing for the teaching and use of Catalan. They are more or less the same people also most committed to independence. We may lack data on this; so I still haven't formed a clear opinion.

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Just that I would like to learn more about this situation because, as unbelievable as it sounds, Catalonian secession threatens not only the integrity of the Spanish state but could deal a death blow to the all ready wobbly EU, which in turn would change the world order.>

I too am watching with interest.

More interesting tidbits.

1. Zamboanga city in southwest Mindanao speaks a language called Chavacano. Its vocabulary is essentially Castilian Spanish, but it also uses Visayan grammatical rules and words.

2. Among Philippine languages, aside from Chavacano, Hiligaynon and Karay-a have the largest number of Spanish derived words.

3. A few of the oldest still living generation from a few upper class families in Manila, Cebu, Iloilo, Bacolod, born in the early 1900s can speak Castilian Spanish fluently. In ten more years, this generation would be gone.

4. Castilian Spanish was taught in colleges as a required subject until the early 1980s. Then Tagalistas succeeded in banishing it. This act has essentially severed our already weak communication link to Latin America.

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <visayanbraindoctor>

<I think this is one of the main reasons why former USSR non Russian republics carry such a heavy negative baggage on the Russian language. For centuries, Russians could just enter their lands and it would be the natives that would be forced to speak Russian. The natives essentially became foreigners in their own lands.

The above phenomenon is difficult to comprehend among monolingual speaking peoples. It just doesn't enter the calculus.>

I see what you mean. I cannot of course understand what this is like, as I have been through this neither directly, or indirectly through my ancestors who whose Hungarian was never threatened.

All I have is empathy, especially here in Australia where to the horror of many, most of the indigenous languages are dead or dying under the weight of imperial english. It's an appalling loss to its people and to the world.

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <visayanbraindoctor>

<it is the younger generations of Catalonians that are quite vigorous in pushing for the teaching and use of Catalan. They are more or less the same people also most committed to independence. We may lack data on this; so I still haven't formed a clear opinion.>

An interesting piece in <The Guardian> marks the extent to which the young have become involved. Forewarned being forearmed about the likelihood of intervention of Spanish police in the referendum process, many of the polling places were protected overnight from night time seizures.

Those polling places were schools, and overnight many teachers and children camped in their schools overnight!

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...

Despite this, I fear for the outcome as Rajov is completely uncompromising in his demands on Catalonia. He promises only the acceptance of complete surrender. Not a wise formula.

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <visayanbraindoctor>

<This indicates that during the Spanish colonial era, our native peoples had a cultural knowledge that most Spaniards in the Philippines were actually Castilians, or spoke Castilian Spanish. (Not Catalan, Occipitan, or Basque.)>

I wouldn't have expected the occupying Spanish to have been other than Castilian, most less Basque. In fact, if I recall my history correctly, the conquistadors were all Castilian.

On other matter, Spanish in invariably offered as one of the subtitle language options on DVDs. What is interesting is that the option is labeled as either "Espanol" or "Castellano".

<Occipitan> heh. This would surely have to be called a neurologically derived typo.

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <Those polling places were schools, and overnight many teachers and children camped in their schools overnight!>

That's admirable IMO. That's close to the spirit of participative democracy. I wonder if the Catalonians remember their region's old Anarchist movements.

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  visayanbraindoctor: <<Occipitan> heh. This would surely have to be called a neurologically derived typo.>

Must have done too many occipital craniectomies (",).

Unfortunately I am unfamiliar with both Australian aboriginal languages and with Hungarian. In fact, I haven't personally seen a live Australian aborigine (although from pictures, they resemble our few remaining native Negritos) nor a walking talking Hungarian person in all of my life.

Come to think of it, I have never seen a Spaniard from Spain in real life either.

Are your ancestors pure Hungarians? Can you physically distinguish Hungarians from other Europeans?

Oct-15-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  twinlark: <visayanbraindoctor>

<I wonder if the Catalonians remember their region's old Anarchist movements.>

They almost certainly do. Its tradition of autonomy had to lead inexorably to the strong anarchist tradition that is at the heart of their culture.

<In fact, I haven't personally seen a live Australian aborigine (although from pictures, they resemble our few remaining native Negritos) nor a walking talking Hungarian person in all of my life.>

Obviously there has been considerable racial admixtures since settlement, especially considering that the Australian Genocide killed off at least 90% of the original inhabitants, and that many of the survivors are racial mixtures. That is not to say they aren't still aborigines, as aboriginality is mainly defined by culture and community rather than biology.

In any event, the original settlement has now been dated to at least 65,000 years ago. I have no idea how many subsequent migrations from Asia occurred after this time. I do know that the Macassars of what is now Indonesia were visiting northern australia for centuries before the colonial administration drove them away forever at the beginning of the last century.

There were intermarriages between Macassars and people of the northern nations, some Macassars remaining on the continent, and some aborigines taking their place in Indonesian society. Consequently there would be phenotypic and genotypic variations.

Going back to the original migrations, these migrations happened regularly over the millennia, with each successive wave of immigrants placing pressure on the southward migration of the residents, until they crossed the Tasmanian landbridge over 10,000 years ago.

Who the immigrants were over the millennia I have no idea, but I would suspect that they wouldn't all have been the same peoples. So there is a fair bit of phenotypic and genotypic variance across the nations, not to mention the myriad languages that developed over the millennia.

Nevertheless, that aborigines have a characteristic look in Australia is largely undeniable, and are easily distinguished by and large from immigrant populations from Africa and elsewhere.

<Are your ancestors pure Hungarians? Can you physically distinguish Hungarians from other Europeans?>

Not sure there is such a thing as a pure Hungarian. There may have been when the nomads rode in from the Urals into the Carpathian Basin, but very quickly formed a nation that entered the European marriage market. There has been considerable intermarriage over the centuries so I'm fairly sure that a phenotypical Hungarian doesn't exist, it's more a matter of language and culture. I could be wrong about this, perhaps <Annie K.> knows more.

Oct-16-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  diceman: Interesting.
As VBD says this:

<visayanbraindoctor:

Why the hell do we pay taxes to Manila (or Madrid) when we could be richer if we keep all of them?>

Which implies "greed."

twinlark says this:

<twinlark:

Madrid’s heavy handed tactics in sending in the police to brutalise voters has played badly.>

<Madrid is determined to crush Catalonia’s secession movements>

Yeah, it must be greed.
It could never be the "results" of government.

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