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| Oct-31-09 |
| Ken Ji jun: There is nothing wrong in pursuit of Higher learning. A few years of burning the oil lamp will reward you with a Degree in Forestry or Game Warden Psychologist. Or an Economics degree, and try to figure out what's wrong with chess World Economy. |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| Jim Bartle: I agree with zarg. In addition to the good points he makes, a person is often more prepared to take advantage of a university education at age 22 than at 19. |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| MrMelad: <zarg: actually I consider the risks higher at age 19-20...> <Jim Bartle: a person is often more prepared to take advantage of a university education at age 22 than at 19.> Considering a person get to start his higher education only once (at a certain age) I was wondering what made you say that? |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| slomarko: <There is no problem whatsoever, starting off with an academic career at the age 22-24, actually I consider the risks higher at age 19-20...> i have my doubts about that. |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| Jim Bartle: Well, MrMelad, first I'd take my own experience. I went off to college at age 18, and really I was too immature to take real advantage the first couple of years. Of course I could have waited, but then my only other option was an all-expenses-paid trip to Vietnam, so I didn't even consider it. A college education is expensive, and requires a lot of work if you're going to take advantage of it. I just think a lot of people just go on to college out of high school without thinking too much about it, and don't work as hard as they should, or (as in my case) don't appreciate the tremendous opportunity they are getting. Maybe they could get the partying, full-time chessplaying, full-time mountain climbing, etc. out of the way before settling down to study. |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| slomarko: <Of course I could have waited, but then my only other option was an all-expenses-paid trip to Vietnam, so I didn't even consider it.> You missed an opurtunity to become a hero like John Rambo! |
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Oct-31-09
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| Thorski: I tend to agree with zarg and Jim, but it's almost impossible to generalize here. Conventions also differ vastly from culture to culture (compare Norwegian academic traditions to those of, say, Hungary, or Japan). While there's a lot to be said for emotional maturity, certain fields demand an early start. Mathematics is a great example of a field where plunging in at twenty-five would almost certainly guarantee an unremarkable career. Which is not to say it would be impossible, or even difficult, to succeed professionally, given sufficient talent and motivation. I suppose it comes down to what's meant by "a good academic career". |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| MrMelad: <Jim Bartle> Thanks for the reply and your experience story! You describe a situation in which your life experience made you <guess> what would happen if you didn't go to college at 18, I on the other hand had the chance to go at 16 but went at 22 eventually and I'd always regretted. Maybe its not that simple, maybe you wouldn't have matured like you did if you didn't follow that path, after all maybe for you not going to college at 18 could have been a start of a bad feeling that could have lasted. Like my story! What I'm saying is its not the best idea to look back and regret. Instead of being bitterness towards the past we should be practical towards the future.. It doesn't matter what brought you so far its only matter where you are now, you can always go forwards! This is why young people are so fearless, they have no past to look at. About Hammer, well, he enters college willingly after a serious challenge, and even gives up a major thing for it, it sounds serious enough... Good luck for him maybe one day we'll talk about his Nobel :) |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| MrMelad: <Thorski: Mathematics is a great example of a field where plunging in at twenty-five would almost certainly guarantee an unremarkable career.> How about Eduard Witten, plunging at 28? |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| MrMelad: <Edward Witten> of course |
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Oct-31-09
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| Thorski: <MrMelad> What are you talking about? Edward Witten received his Ph.D. at 25. |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| MrMelad: I'm sure I read it somewhere! I'll have to get back to you on this one... |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| MrMelad: I guess I was mistaken, could have misplaced 3 for 8.. Darn it! Should have checked it in Wiki first.. Thanks! |
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Oct-31-09
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| zarg: <Jim: Maybe they could get the partying, full-time chessplaying, full-time mountain climbing, etc. out of the way before settling down to study.> Exactly!
If having a passion in life, I think it's even more important to live that out for a period. There are quite a few young students who drop out, or doesn't do that great after the undergrad level. |
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Oct-31-09
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| zarg: <Mathematics is a great example of a field where plunging in at twenty-five would almost certainly guarantee an unremarkable career.> I will be very worried, if my kid go directly for it in math, my brother did it, but that path is rather risky... |
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Oct-31-09
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| rogge: Hammer is going for some kind of economics Master degree, isn't he? It could wait a couple of years... |
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Oct-31-09
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| zarg: First it would be a master yes, but he might aim for a PhD afterwards. Anyway, one don't need to start off that path as a teen. |
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Oct-31-09
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| tpstar: <stupid academic education> First, it is extremely presumptuous for outsiders to judge his career options. Naturally it is his decision, in consultation with his family, and his life. Second, there is a definite problem with waiting on an "academic career" as 1-2 years of extra studies will always get the nod over 1-2 years of non-studies, even professional sports or chess. That is how Academia works. Moreover, anyone with postgraduate education understands it is that much harder to complete as you age. Third, how many young people are told to "follow your passion" by their entourage - friends, cousins, hangers-on - who only view them as a meal ticket. Often they get injured, or cut, or don't make it, and then they have nothing - no dream, no education, no future. What then? Reading this advice, I wonder if people really have his best interests at heart, or is it their own interests. |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| MaxxLange: Prospects for an academic career aren't so great right now, either, at least in America. There are just too many PhDs, and too few jobs. |
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| Oct-31-09 |
| MaxxLange: If you study mathematics at a graduate level, though, you should be able to convert that into at least a programming/data/statistics type job, though, at worst, even if you cannot become a professor or researcher. |
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Oct-31-09
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| Appaz: <<tpstar> <stupid academic education>
Reading this advice, I wonder if people really have his best interests at heart, or is it their own interests.> Oh, definitely my own. I want him to get out there and entertain me! But I'm pretty sure my choice would have been some years of chess, given his options. |
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Nov-01-09
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| rogge: <tpstar>, you're right. We should ban all professional sports, it's bad for kids' education. |
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Nov-01-09
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| zarg: <tpstar: I wonder if people really have his best interests at heart, or is it their own interests.> I most certainly have his best interest at heart, and have stated the exact same thing to my own kid. <That is how Academia works.> No, starting studying 1-3 years later, don't make a difference in Norway, what matters, is that <when> you go for it, you do that well. To get a master degree only, will not require something very special and I don't see much problem in being even 5 years late for that. To get a PhD scholarship can be difficult, what matter most is the quality of the graduate work. To really stand out, the student should make a publication in a respectable journal. I've supervised graduate students, who I don't consider being research material, but even so got an A on their thesis. To get a position, it's about your publication list and academic production capacity, and if the competition is hard, the young can't expect getting a position at all. Need to deliver first. |
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Nov-01-09
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| pawn to QB4: of course, back in the day Botvinnik and co would have advised him to go for the academic opportunities, not just instead of pursuing a chess career, but because they thought an educated and well-rounded personality made for a stronger player in the long run, and also a happier guy. Bobby Fischer (on the playing strength side) notwithstanding, I think there's probably much to be said for this view. |
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Nov-03-09
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| rogge: Hammer in the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/01/n... |
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