< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 7211 OF 7211 ·
|Jun-30-15|| ||Big Pawn: <kellmano: Seems obvious to me 'choice' is not a straight-forward binary situation. Can you choose not to cry at a funeral? I guess you could feel very much like crying but and supress it as much as possible, but surely there is a point at which the feeling is so strong there is not a choice.>|
Right. Here's another example: can you choose to be a poached egg? No!
Therefore, homosexuality is not a choice.
I'd dump the feelings-first workdview in favor of a worldview based on reasons and logic. People that commit suicide let their feelings talk them into it. Feelings need to be in check.
|Jun-30-15|| ||Big Pawn: <The pro-gray side says:
All genetic behavior is okay
All Homosexuality is genetic behavior
Therefore All homosexual>
A decent and rare attempt to actually form an actual argument here at the Rogoff page. Glad to see some clear thinking. This argument is valid, but I think genetic behavior is an unclear term. For instance:
<The other side says:
All genetic behavior is okay
No Homosexuality is okay
Therefore No Homosexuality is genetic behavior.>
What is meant by "all genetic behavior"?
I inherit alcoholic genes. I drink too much and get drunk all the time like an alcoholic.
This is not okay just because I inherited bad genes.
I don't think that anyone can say that their actions were not preceded by choices (unless there is a gun to your head, or if you are swirling around in a tornado etc...)
I think it's true that we might not always choose to feel certain ways, but we do choose what to act on. This idea that homosexuals are somehow not in control of their lives, like they are unthinking robots that have no choice but to robotically carry out pre programmed acts of sodomy is ridiculous and not worthy of real argument.
I can just imagine all of these homosexuals walking around like zombies with their arms stretched out in front of them, plodding along slowly one step at a time, glazed over looks on their faces, mindlessly creeping around the earth while constantly and compulsively looking for an anus to poke saying, "it's not my choice, it's not my choice"
|Jun-30-15|| ||Big Pawn: <Jun-29-15
Premium Chessgames Member kellmano: <big pawn> 'forcing' isn't a straight binary either. On your basis if someone had a gun to your head, for example, you could still choose not to obey them. In my homosexuality example I was referring the misery of the spouse and family, not the closet homosexual.>
Kellmano, your binary force comment is a distiction that makes no difference.
Yes, gun to head or not, both are choices.
The difference that actually matters is this:
In the case of homosexuals and their sexual preference, they willingly choose to engage in sodomy or whatever. Preference is the key word.
In the case of the man with a gun to his head, he doesn't want to do what the man with the gun says, but only does so because of force; he doesn't want to die.
Let's look at another example of force:
Say I see you at the store and I go up to you and knock your groceries out of your hands. I'm to blame.
Now suppose that I have no such intentions whatsoever but someone pushes me into you, knocking the groceries out of your hand. I'm not to blame, even though I could have chosen to not be at the store.
On another note, although I refer to "homosexuals", I only do so because those are the words you people are using to talk about this.
My thoughts are that there is no need to label someone a homosexual. Instead, they are just people. We should be talking about homosexuality the act, the behavior, and not use that to brand a certain identity to a person.
Some confused feeling-first people think that saying "homosexuality is wrong" is the same thing as saying "if you participate in homo behavior then YOU are no good". This makes the feelings-first people feel like meanness is being spread around for no reason.
If we say stealing is wrong, that doesn't mean that if you've ever stolen you are forever a bad person. We can't easily judge people including ourselves, but we can judge behavior and that's what we do when we condemn homosexuality.
|Jun-30-15|| ||Big Pawn: <they live a crushed life now because she committed suicide.
I'm sure they would have given up the attempts to "cure" her if that meant she would still be alive today.>|
Lots of homosexuals commit suicide. It's a dangerous lifestyle. That's probably one of the things her parents worried about.
Homos commit suicide because they have an inner moral experience that tells them they are living wrong, and the shame is unbearable.
The shame is unbearable because these people are judging themselves. They shouldn't. They kill themselves because they are feelings-first and vulnerable to their feelings. They ought to avoid that.
Instead, they should allow their intellect to take the lead and hold their feelings in check. The intellect should not be a slave to ones feelings.
|Jun-30-15|| ||Big Pawn: <HeMateMe: <The "Sex and the City" star recently clarified remarks she made during a speech to a gay audience in which she declared, "I've been straight and I've been gay, and gay is better.">
Um....Big Pawn, maybe a) she's bisexual and is still sorting out her own desires>|
No, you're just wrong. How dare you speak for her. She said GAY and not bi-sexual. I know she's a woman and we are men, but I think she is fully capable of expressing herself as a mature adult.
or b) she feels that it is empowering to tell the world that whe wasn't hatched gay, but simply found her way in that world, after lengthy experimentation. celebs do go off on ego trips, to get more attentio>
You've got a vivid imagination. But why refuse to take in her words at face value? There are no good reasons to doubt what she says - except that it totally contradicts your liberal narrative.
Amazing how you immediately invent your own alternate reality to keep your emotional convictions intact.
<Many gay people say that they were confused as teenagers, because they didn't know what they were supposed to be, and they experimented with sex with both girls and boys. They ultimately followed their deepest and earliest impulses, which were for same sex relationships.>
You're right, many say that. You know why? Because they can express themselves as adults just like sex in the city woman. I noticed you don't invent ad hoc theories about the "many" homos that you mentioned; only for this lady that contradicted your narrative.
<It is possible that there is a mix of hereditary and environment in the makeup of a gay person.>
Not with our girl above. She was quite candid. You just refuse to hear her at all. After our conversation here, you'll pretend that you've never heard of any gays saying its a choice.
|Jun-30-15|| ||Big Pawn: <Richard Taylor> For the most "boring man in the world" your post was very interesting - and well written. I guess, being in philosophy, I love reading boring work! (did you study philosophy?)|
Indeed, the current situation is lamentable and I second your lamentations.
I guess you live in NZ? I didn't know the sodomites had invaded your neck of the woods too.
|Jun-30-15|| ||Abdel Irada: <Big Pawn: Homosexuality not a choice so it's not immoral?|
I wonder if <Abdel> really believes that Allah knows what is in his heart. I wonder if <Abdel> thinks that Allah will believe his lies just because he lies to himself?
Life is very short.
Will Allah ask Abdel, "why, when given the chance, did you not love your fellow man by guiding him in the right way when he is lost?">
First, I will point out that *you* do not know what is in my heart, so don't accuse me of lying. My opinion may be wrong, but every mistaken opinion is not a lie.
Then I will turn the question around and ask: "[W]hy, when given the chance, did you not love your fellow man by guiding him in the right way when he is lost?"
<OCF> says it is better to kill homosexuals than to tolerate them. Surely killing is worse than almost anything else one can do; surely to kill someone for sexual "deviance" is a terrible sin.
You have even said you rejected <OCF>'s reasoning. Why, then, do you not correct him?
|Jun-30-15|| ||epistle: Homosexuality is God's solution to the problem of population explosion.|
|Jun-30-15|| ||Abdel Irada: <epistle>: I said something rather like that earlier. :-)|
|Jun-30-15|| ||epistle: I was just echoing your wisdom.|
|Jun-30-15|| ||cormier: http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings...|
|Jun-30-15|| ||cormier: Israel is set to start building a 16-foot-high wall along its eastern border with Jordan. The 19-mile segment will stretch from the southern port city of Eilat to Timna, where a new airport will be built.|
|Jun-30-15|| ||Abdel Irada: Maybe I echoed yours retroactively. :-D
|Jun-30-15|| ||OhioChessFan: <john b: That is why leading a life in accordance with moral principles is very hard. Moral puts an obligation on us whether we like it or not.>|
I think that's the primary driving force of unbelief. An admission that God exists implies a moral obligation to live according to that God's dictates. A lot of people can't/won't do that.
|Jun-30-15|| ||OhioChessFan: <CIO: they live a crushed life now because she committed suicide. I'm sure they would have given up the attempts to "cure" her if that meant she would still be alive today.>|
I realize it's impossible to get into specifics, but there's no question suicide rates are high among those who identify as homosexual. Does that suggest a problem with the identification?
|Jun-30-15|| ||Jim Bartle: <I realize it's impossible to get into specifics, but there's no question suicide rates are high among those who identify as homosexual. Does that suggest a problem with the identification?>|
No. It suggests a problem with rehection and condemnation from others.
|Jun-30-15|| ||ljfyffe: Driving someone to suicide rather than killing them directly is so much more "Christian", I suppose.|
|Jun-30-15|| ||diceman: <Jim Bartle: <I realize it's impossible to get into specifics, but there's no question suicide rates are high among those who identify as homosexual. Does that suggest a problem with the identification?>|
No. It suggests a problem with rehection and condemnation from others.>
...being conservative I wouldn't know.
I only deal with the "most tolerant" when it comes to sexuality, religion, race, wealth, guns, freedoms, laws.
It must be awful to be "labeled."
|Jun-30-15|| ||Jim Bartle: Could someone please translate <diceman>'s reply into "coherent"?|
|Jun-30-15|| ||ljfyffe: It cannot be done.|
|Jun-30-15|| ||Abdel Irada: That's okay. <diceman> is a master of the art of quoting himself, so he really doesn't need an interlocutor.|
|Jun-30-15|| ||perfidious: <Abdel Irada: That's okay. <diceman> is a master of the art of quoting himself, so he really doesn't need an interlocutor.>|
Cuts down on one's overhead, don't you know--cost of doing business is high nowadays.
|Jun-30-15|| ||diceman: <ljfyffe: Driving someone to suicide rather than killing them directly>|
Wouldn't it have been cool if the cake bakers honored Mohammed?
...liberals would have lost their heads
over Christians finally building bridges, and mending fences.
...and stringing up rope.
<lost their heads>
...a second tip of the hat!
<killing them directly>
...known in the Middle East as, "cutting out the middle man."
|Jun-30-15|| ||al wazir: <OhioChessFan: An admission that God exists implies a moral obligation to live according to that God's dictates.> Nonsense. Does an "admission" that Odin or Zeus exists imply a moral obligation? It all depends on what sort of god your imagination comes up with.|
I can imagine a god creating the universe (well, I can't, but some people can) but then taking no further interest in it. Like me building a birdhouse and then not bothering to watch what the birds do or just forgetting about it.
Being all-powerful doesn't imply anything about right and wrong. Surely you can see that those characteristics are unrelated.
|Jun-30-15|| ||chancho: <Most Americans don't know Chris Christie like I do, so it's only natural to wonder what testimony I might offer after covering his every move for the last 14 years.|
Is it his raw political talent? No, they can see that.>
<Is it his measurable failure to fix the economy, solve the budget crisis or even repair the crumbling bridges? No, his opponents will cover that if he ever gets traction.
My testimony amounts to a warning: Don't believe a word the man says.>
<Don't misunderstand me. They all lie, and I get that.> <<<But Christie does it with such audacity, and such frequency,>>> <<<that he stands out.>
<He has a silver tongue.
but if you look closely you can see that it is forked like a serpent's.
But let's start with my personal favorite. It dates back to the 2009 campaign, when the public workers unions asked him if he intended to cut their benefits.
He told them their pensions were <<<"sacred">>> to him.>
<"The notion that I would eliminate, change, or alter your pension is not only a lie, but cannot be further from the truth," he wrote them. <<<"Your pension and benefits will be protected>>> when I am elected governor."
He then proceeded to make cutting those benefits the centerpiece of his first year in office.>
<This, we know now, was vintage Christie. Other lying politicians tend to waffle, to leave themselves some escape hatch. You can almost smell it.
But Christie <<<lies with conviction.>>> His hands don't shake, and his eyes don't wander. I can hardly blame the union leaders who met with him for believing him.
"He seemed very sincere," says Bill Lavin, head of the firefighters union. "Why doubt someone who tells you this is sacred to them?">
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