< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 5298 OF 5298 ·
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: <Colonel Mortimer> That goes back to Day 1. It's the world's oldest victimization campaign.|
|Dec-04-13|| ||keypusher: <Shams: <Colonel Mortimer> That goes back to Day 1. It's the world's oldest victimization campaign.>|
Day 1? Like, the day they crucified him?
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: <keypusher> Even before he was born, actually. The messiah was a Jewish revenge fantasy, meant to come and free them from their persecutors.|
|Dec-04-13|| ||keypusher: <Shams: <keypusher> Even before he was born, actually. The messiah was a Jewish revenge fantasy, meant to come and free them from their <persecutors>.>|
So if you have persecutors, aren't you, in fact, a victim?
|Dec-04-13|| ||cormier: easter ... the most important celebration .... the resurection ..... victory over death ...... by the all-mighty Father .......|
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: <keypusher> Sure. Two points:|
1.) Does the fact of having been a victim preclude a victimization campaign? To my mind, "victimization" has more to do with how you see yourself and how you ask to be seen than it does whatever underlying indignities you may have suffered. Am I wrong about that? That's how I perceive the term as being used.
Imagine somebody on cable news saying such-and-such identity group is "playing the victim card". Is this person really going to change his opinion if you get him to admit that at some point, that group really was victimized? I doubt it.
2.) There are two separate victimizations here: those of the Jews at the hands of the Romans and, later, the death of Jesus at the hands of...well, that depends on who you ask. But the one fed into the other.
This book tells the story well:
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: Apparently we've already had a gay President...how have I not heard this before?|
<I have gone a wooing to several gentlemen, but have not succeeded with any one of them...">
|Dec-04-13|| ||al wazir: Obama isn't even the first African-American U.S. president: < It was rumored in Blooming Grove that one of Harding's great-grandmothers might have been African American.> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren...|
|Dec-04-13|| ||HeMateMe: Was Rock Hudson too close to Ron Reagan?|
|Dec-04-13|| ||john barleycorn: <HeMateMe: Was Rock Hudson too close to Ron Reagan?>
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: <al wazir> From the wiki article it doesn't sound like there's any support for that rumor.|
|Dec-04-13|| ||al wazir: <Shams: From the wiki article it doesn't sound like there's any support for that rumor.> You didn't have a problem swallowing that rumor about Buchanan. You have a double standard.|
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: <al wazir> Nonsense. Did you read the piece? There's evidence of Buchanan's homosexuality (not the least the man's own words) and apparently none for the notion that Harding was Black. That's not a double standard.|
|Dec-04-13|| ||Karposian: <Shams: <al wazir> Nonsense. Did you read the piece? There's evidence of Buchanan's homosexuality>|
Hard evidence? No. Many indicators, yes. There is a high probability that Buchanan was gay but there is definitely no consensus among historians regarding this issue.
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: <Karposian> <Hard evidence? No. Many indicators, yes.> |
Well, I never suggested it was proven (see "apparently" in my first post.) But I'm not sure what sort of hard evidence we could ever have. Gym membership stubs? Title to a Honda del Sol? A "selfie" of him taken at a Bette Midler concert?
<[T]here is definitely no consensus among historians regarding this issue.>
Sounds like you know more about it than I do. But the author of the Salon piece seems to disagree:
<"Today, I know no historian who has studied the matter and thinks Buchanan was heterosexual.">
Maybe he only knows one or two historians.
|Dec-04-13|| ||al wazir: <Shams: Did you read the piece?> I read the wiki article on Buchanan. |
<There's evidence of Buchanan's homosexuality> Boys and girls, can you spell "hearsay"?
<(not the least the man's own words)> I agree that that quotation is suggestive. I'd like to know more about its provenance and the chain of custody before admitting it as evidence.
<and apparently none for the notion that Harding was Black.> Well, he wasn't "black." I've seen pictures, and he was as white as I am. But how white is that? We are all related. (See http://online.wsj.com/news/articles... for a dramatic example of a recent find that supports that.) Harding had 16 great-great grandparents. Most people don't know who all 16 of their great-great grandparents were. (I don't know anything about any of mine.) It's quite possible that one of Harding's great-great grandmothers was "African American," which could mean that one (1) of *her* great-great grandparents was an African slave. (That would make Harding 1/256 "black.")
For the record, I believe that Buchanan was effeminate, was at least in denial of his sexuality and was possibly a closeted homosexual and, with much less certainty, was a practicing one. I think there is a good chance that if Harding wasn't 1/256 black, some other president was.
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: <al wazir> The judicial rules of evidence don't apply here. If historical inquiries were restricted to using the rules of evidence, we'd never get to come to any conclusions about the past unless we found living witnesses to cross-examine. |
Do you really imagine the letter is fake? That's pretty doubtful.
<So what?> I agree in both cases. But we live in an age of identity politics, so whether a person was black or gay or what have you is of some interest.
If we knew that a President was partly black, and we knew that *he* knew that, we'd read his statements or actions on race relations at least a bit differently, wouldn't we?
|Dec-04-13|| ||HeMateMe: Some guy on MSNBC had to resign today, for calling Sarah Palin "a world class idiot." Whatever happened to truth in journalism?|
|Dec-04-13|| ||perfidious: Bashir was also not wrong when he stated that Palin should be forced to eat s***, but he should have had the good sense to keep his views to himself.|
|Dec-04-13|| ||Karposian: <Shams>
Well, the author of the Salon piece is not completely wrong about this, most historians think that he probably was gay but that's the point: they <think> he was, they don't state it as a fact.
What I mean with the lack of consensus is that many historians do speculate about his presumed homosexuality while others don't think there are enough material on this to assume anything one way or the other.
|Dec-04-13|| ||Shams: <Karposian> Interesting, thanks. As I said, all this was news to me. And here I thought "U.S. Presidents" was one of my stronger Jeopardy! categories.|
|Dec-05-13|| ||hedgeh0g: <perfidious: Bashir was also not wrong when he stated that Palin should be forced to eat s***, but he should have had the good sense to keep his views to himself.>|
A simple teabagging would have sufficed.
|Dec-05-13|| ||FSR: It's not Murka without guns: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/... Even famous libruls kill people in gun accidents! http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/20... Laura Bush prefers cars. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/b... She prayed for the boy she hit, but inexplicably God didn't answer her prayers.|
|Dec-05-13|| ||Nina Myers: Did you know... http://s-media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com...|
|Dec-05-13|| ||johnlspouge: Not to open any old wounds, but by coincidence, at work, under the rubric "Lamarckian resurgence", I received the following link to the original article in the journal Nature describing olfactory conditioning of F_0 mice affecting the epigenetics of their offspring and their odor responses.|
"Parental olfactory experience influences behavior and neural structure in subsequent generations"
[ http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal... ]
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