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AylerKupp
Member since Dec-31-08 · Last seen May-19-13
About Me (in case you care):

Old timer from Fischer, Reshevky, Spassky, Petrosian, etc. era. Active while in high school and early college, but not much since. Never rated above low 1800s and highly erratic; I would occasionally beat much higher rated players and equally often lose to much lower rated players. Highly entertaining combinatorial style, everybody liked to play me since they were never sure what I was going to do (neither did I!). When facing a stronger player many try to even their chances by steering towards simple positions to be able to see what was going on. My philosophy in those situations was to try to even the chances by complicating the game to the extent that neither I nor the stronger player would be able to see what was going on! Alas, this approach no longer works in the computer age. And, needless to say, my favorite all-time player is Tal.

I also have a computer background and have been following with interest the development in computer chess since the days when computers couldn't always recognize illegal moves and a patzer like me could beat them with ease. Now it’s me that can’t always recognize illegal moves and any chess program can beat me with ease.

But after about 2 years (a lifetime in computer-related activities) of playing computer-assisted chess, I think I have learned a thing or two about the subject. I have conceitedly defined "AylerKupp's corollary to Murphy's Law" as follows:

"If you use your engine to analyze a position to a search depth=N, your opponent's killer move (the move that will refute your entire analysis) will be found at search depth=N+1, regardless of the value you choose for N."

I’m also a food and wine enthusiast. Some of my favorites are German wines (along with French, Italian, US, New Zealand, Australia, Argentina, Spain, ... well, you probably get the idea). One of my early favorites were wines from the Ayler Kupp vineyard in the Saar region, hence my user name. Here is a link to a picture of the village of Ayl with a portion of the Kupp vineyard on the left: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A...

You can send me an e-mail whenever you'd like to aylerkupp(at)gmail.com.

And check out a picture of me with my "partner", Rybka (Aylerkupp / Rybka) from the CG.com Masters vs. Machines Invitational (2011). No, I won't tell you which one is me.

-------------------

Analysis Tree Spreadsheet (ATSS).

The ATSS is a spreadsheet developed to track the analyses posted by team members in various on-line games (XXXX vs. The World, Team White vs. Team Black, etc.). It is a poor man's database which provides some tools to help organize and find analyses.

I'm in the process of developing a series of tutorials on how to use it and related information. The tutorials are spread all over this forum, so here's a list of the tutorials developed to date and links to them:

Overview: AylerKupp chessforum

Minimax algorithm: AylerKupp chessforum

Principal Variation: AylerKupp chessforum

Finding desired moves: AylerKupp chessforum

Average Move Evaluation Calculator (AMEC): AylerKupp chessforum

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Chess Engine Evaluation Project

Some time ago I started but then dropped a project whose goal was to evaluate different engines' performance in solving the "insane" Sunday puzzles. I'm planning to restart the project with the following goals:

(1) Determine whether various engines were capable of solving the Sunday puzzles within a reasonable amount of time, how long it took them to do so, and what search depth they required.

(2) Classify the puzzles as Easy, Medium, or Hard from the perspective of how many engines successfully solved the puzzle, and to determine whether any one engine(s) excelled at the Hard problems.

(3) Classify the puzzle positions as Open, Semi-Open, or Closed and determine whether any engine excelled at one type of positions that other engines did not.

(4) Classify the puzzle position as characteristic of the opening, middle game, or end game and determine which engines excelled at one phase of the game vs. another.

(5) Compare the evals of the various engines to see whether one engine tends to generate higher or lower evals than other engines for the same position.

If anybody is interested in participating in the restarted project, either post a response in this forum or send me an email. Any comments, suggestions, etc. very welcome.

-------------------

Ratings Inflation

I have recently become interested in the increase in top player ratings since the mid-1980s and whether this represents a true increase in player strength (and if so, why) or if it is simply a consequence of a larger chess population from which ratings are derived. So I've opened up my forum for discussions on this subject.

As of this writing (Mar-2013) I've managed to collect the FIDE rating lists from year end 1966 to year end 2012 in a spreadsheet, and you can download it from here: http://rapidshare.com/files/1057538.... It is quite large (89 MB) and to open it you will need Excel 2007 or later version or a compatible spreadsheet.

The spreadsheet also contains several charts and summary information. If you are only interested in that and not the actual rating lists, you can download a much smaller (570 KB) spreadsheet containing the charts and summary information from here: http://rapidshare.com/files/3731810...(summary).xls. You can open this file with a pre-Excel 2007 version or a compatible spreadsheet.

FWIW, after looking at the data I think that ratings inflation, which I define to be the unwarranted increase in ratings not necessarily accompanied by a corresponding increase in playing strength, is real, but it is a slow process. I refer to this as my "Bottom Feeder" hypothesis and it goes something like this:

1. Initially (late 1960s and 1970s) the ratings for the strongest players were fairly constant.

2. In the 1980s the number of rated players began to increase exponentially, and they entered the FIDE-rated chess playing population mostly at the lower rating levels. The ratings of the stronger of these players increased as a result of playing weaker players, but their ratings were not sufficiently high to play in tournaments, other than open tournaments, where they would meet middle and high rated players.

3. Eventually they did. The ratings of the middle rated players then increased as a result of beating the lower rated players, and the ratings of the lower rated players then leveled out and even started to decline. You can see this effect in the 'Inflation Charts' tab, "Rating Inflation: Nth Player: 1966 – 2012" chart, for the 1500th to 5000th rated player.

4. Once the middle rated players increased their ratings sufficiently, they began to meet the strongest players. And the cycle repeated itself. The ratings of the middle players began to level out and might now be ready to start a decrease. You can see this effect in the same chart for the 100th to 1000th rated player.

5. The ratings of the strongest players, long stable, began to increase as a result of beating the middle rated players. And, because they are at the top of the food chain, their ratings, at least so far, continue to climb. I think that they will eventually level out but if this hypothesis is true there is no force to drive them down so they will stay relatively constant like the pre-1986 10th rated player and the pre-1980 50th rated player. When this leveling out will take place, if it does, and at what level, I have no idea. It may be fun to try to figure it out.

You can see in the chart that the rating increase, leveling off, and decline first starts with the lowest ranking players, then through the middle ranking players, and finally affects the top ranked players. It's not precise, it's not 100% consistent, but it certainly seems evident. And the process takes decades so it's not easy to see unless you look at all the years and many ranked levels.

Of course, this is just a hypothesis and the chart may look very different 20 years from now. But, at least on the surface, it doesn't sound unreasonable to me.

Any comments, suggestions, criticisms, etc. are both welcomed and encouraged.

Chessgames.com Full Member

   AylerKupp has kibitzed 4519 times to chessgames   [more...]
   May-19-13 J L Hammer vs Nakamura, 2013
 
AylerKupp: <parmetd> If the Noteboom has been all but completely refuted by correspondence chess then I suspect that this must be a relatively recent development. Sherbakov in his book (2012) considers 16.f4 to be the main line after 15.Nd2 so either he wasn't aware of this development
 
   May-19-13 Team White vs Team Black, 2013 (replies)
   May-18-13 Norway Chess Tournament (2013) (replies)
 
AylerKupp: <dx9293> See my comments to your earlier post about 16...a4 at J L Hammer vs Nakamura, 2013 which I think is a more appropriate place to discuss this game.
 
   May-16-13 Svidler vs Karjakin, 2013 (replies)
 
AylerKupp: <Strongest Force> Yes, it was the same way with me. Then I stopped growing and that was the end of my basketball aspirations. Funny how the same thing happened to my chess aspirations.
 
   May-15-13 Robert James Fischer (replies)
 
AylerKupp: <Eggman> I may be nitpicking but according to the book I mentioned Fischer found out about the existence of a camera filming the match after 3 moves had been played in the second session of the first game and complained to Schmid. Schmid ordered the camera removed and it ...
 
   May-15-13 Karjakin vs Nakamura, 2013 (replies)
 
AylerKupp: <caissafan1963> Fischer said many things in his life, not all of them correct. Fischer played White against the Dragon before the strength of the Soltis variation for Black with ...h5 was fully appreciated. It pretty much stops White's attack dead in its tracks, or at least ...
 
   May-14-13 Carlsen vs Radjabov, 2013 (replies)
 
AylerKupp: Let's not forget the significant time advantage that Carlsen has. Soon Radjabov will be reduced to 30 secs per move for the rest of the game. Not a good situation to be in a complex endgame where precise calculation is required, not to mention against Carlsen. So, while in the ...
 
   May-14-13 Komodo (Computer)
 
AylerKupp: <pbercker> I use Arena myself but I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert on it. When I first started using chess engines I selected Arena because it was the most comprehensive of the free engines (I'm cheap). I have Rybka 4 so I also have the Rybka/Fritz interface, but I
 
   May-13-13 DcGentle chessforum (replies)
 
...
 
   May-13-13 Karjakin vs Carlsen, 2013 (replies)
 
AylerKupp: Woq. I go away to take a shower and when I return the game has changed from a definite advantage for White to a definite advantage for Black. Who knows what might happen if I go away again. I know, I know, many are probably encouraging me to take a second shower.
 
(replies) indicates a reply to the comment.

De Gustibus Non Disputandum Est

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 24 OF 35 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Aug-15-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  blue wave: LOL.

I'd say the following is a good very good indicater that after <2...e6> that you will see Nimzo, not Benoni. But who knows, I "might" be wrong.

<<Pre-voting forum>

What would you answer after...

a) <2...e6 3.Nc3>

3...Bb4 (8 votes)

b) <2...e6 3.Nf3>

3...b6 (4 votes)
3...d5 (2 votes)
3...c5 (2 votes)

c) <2...g6 3.Nc3>

3...Bg7 (6 votes)
3...d5 (1 vote)

**** Please vote at my forum ****

Voters so far: <Boomie>, <WinKing>, <imag>, <DaringSpeculator>, <karpkasp>, <2Towers>, <capafan>, <Hesam7>.

**** Please vote at my forum ****>

FWIW. ;)

Aug-15-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Golden Executive> Yes, I agree with that. I don't want anyone to think that I'm disagreable without justification. After all, there will be lots of opportunities for people to think that I'm disagreable when there is plenty of justification for them to feel that way. :-)
Aug-15-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <blue wave> While I agree with you that after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 we are more likely to see a Nimzo-Indian than a Benoni, I wouldn't go so far as to say that a total of 8 votes is a good indicator when there were 322 players voting on the first move. Who knows what the rest of the players will vote for? Maybe they will favor a QGD with 3..d5?

But that reminds me, I should vote at <Waitaka>'s forum.

Aug-15-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AgentRgent: <after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3> *I* will be voting for a Nimzo-Indian. But after 3. Nf3 I think we can convince the team to play a Benoni. We only failed by 8 Votes against Shulman and we've already played a QID (against Shulman).. So not only do I think 2...e6 is more likely to get us a Benoni, it's more likely to get us a Benoni <I> will support! :-)
Aug-15-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  blue wave: Fair enough. Agree with comments above. Btw. I don't don't mind playing a Nimzo opening.
Aug-16-11  MumbaiIndians: <Waitaka> In the line with Bd3 above,8...a6 9.a4 Bg4 is d correct line,dats wat i feel...
Aug-16-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 5.d5 exd5 6.cxd5 d6 7.Nc3 g6 8.e4 Bg7 9.Be2 O-O 10.O-O Na6 11.Nd2 Nc7 12.a4 Ne8 13.f3 f5 Rybka considers the position playable for Black (I consider any engine eval of less than [+0.50] as playable for Black).


click for larger view

I'll show the top 3 PVs:

Rybka 4.1, d=24:

1. [+0.43] 14.Nc4 b6 15.Bf4 fxe4 16.fxe4 Ba6 17.Na3 Qe7 18.Bxa6 Nxa6 19.Qe2 Nb4 20.Rad1 a6 21.Kh1 Rb8 22.Bg3 Rf6 23.Rxf6 Nxf6 24.Nc4


click for larger view

White has a small pull due to its pressure on d6. And after 24..Ne8 25.h4 b5 26.axb5 axb5 27.Ne3 White seems ready to start k-side operations.

2. [+0.42] 14.exf5 Bxf5 15.Nc4 Na6 16.Bf4 Nb4 17.Qd2 Qf6 18.Be3 Qe7 19.g4 Bc2 20.Rfc1 Bb3 21.Na5 Bc2 22.Kg2 Qc7 23.Nc4 Bb3 24.Ne4 Nf6 25.Ncxd6


click for larger view

Too bad that Rybka didn't provide additional moves. I guess the likely continuation would be 25...Nxe4 26.Nxe4 Nxd5 27.Bxc5 Rfd8 (or maybe 27...Nf4+ followed by 28...Rxd8) when I have no idea who comes out on top.

3. [+0.38] 14.Kh1 b6 15.Nc4 Ba6 16.Bf4 Qe7 17.Qc2 fxe4 18.fxe4 Bxc4 19.Bxc4 Be5 20.Bh6 Rxf1+ 21.Rxf1 Nf6 22.Qe2 Re8 23.Bd3 Nd7 24.Qe3 Bd4 25.Qh3 Bg7 26.Bd2 Ne5


click for larger view

Looks reasonably equal to me. After the exchange of rooks following ...Rf8 and the possible exchange of White's DSB for Black's great Ne5, the BOC suggest a draw.

I think that Black has a playable game in these f3 lines if he can play the f7-f5 pawn break.

Aug-16-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Open Defence: <AK> the line I posted specifically had to deal with 7.Nd2 from White....
Aug-16-11  ajile: capafan's h3 line.


click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 3 32-bit : 20 ply

1. = (0.23): 12...b6 13.Qc2 Qe7 14.Re1 Rb8 15.Nc4 Ne5 16.Bg5 Nxc4 17.Bxc4 Qc7 18.Qe2 Ra8 19.Qe3 Bb7 20.Qf4 Nd7

2. ² (0.31): 12...Rb8 13.a5 Ne5
14.Qc2 Qc7 15.f4 Ned7 16.Ra3 b5 17.axb6

This line can transpose into similar variations which have Black playing ..Qe7 earlier. White's development Be2 stops Black from playing ..Nh5 and also eyes the important b5 square.

Downside is it blocks the e file.

12...b6 13.Qc2 Qe7 14.Re1 Rb8
15.Nc4 Ne5 are logical moves from
the above position:


click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 3 32-bit : 21 ply
1. ² (0.39): 16.Na3 Nh5 17.Be3 Qh4 18.Qd2 f6 19.Nc4 Nxc4 20.Bxc4 g5 21.Rab1 Nf4 22.Bxf4 Qxf4 23.Re3 Qh4 24.Qd3 Ra8 25.Rg3 Qf4 26.Rf3

2. = (0.10): 16.Bf4 Nxc4 17.Bxc4 Nh5 18.Bh2 Be5 19.Bxe5 Qxe5 20.Re3 Qg5 21.Rb1 Re7 22.Rd1 Re8 23.Qc1 Bb7 24.Rde1 Qe5

The end of line #1 is dead even.

Aug-16-11  ajile: <AylerKupp: After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 5.d5 exd5 6.cxd5 d6 7.Nc3 g6 8.e4 Bg7 9.Be2 O-O 10.O-O Na6>

As I mentioned in my other post Black doesn't need to commit this knight this early IMO. Black can wait and play either/or ..Re8 and or ..Qe7 in the next couple of moves depending on what White does.

Aug-16-11  ajile: Opening Explorer

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 e6 4.Nc3 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 g6 7.Nf3 Bg7 8.Be2 O-O 9.O-O Re8 10.Nd2 a6 11.a4 Nbd7 12.f3

One of the base positions in the f3 line. Note that Black has delayed development of the q-knight to move 11.

Opening explorer has these four Black moves:

12..b6
12..Ne5
12..Rb8
12..Qc7 (Tal)

12..Qe7
12..Nh5 No games in database but this move is scoring well for Black so far.

Aug-16-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  capafan: <ajile><capafan's h3 line. >

No wonder you wanted to us to post lines...I am not even sure what the above line is meant to be...I am sorry but I had been working on your original line assuming Black plays <Qe7>. You may be correct in that the variations transpose, however, I must have missed the transition to where you and <imag> left to discuss something else. (I will post the whole line from now on)

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nc3 g6 7.e4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 Re8 10.Nd2

Now you recommended as I recall:

10...Nbd7 to which I still believe 11.a4 is best.

If we continue then with 11...a6 12.h3 we reach the position in your diagram. Playing through the posted line 12...b6 13.Qc2 Qe7 14.Re1 Rb8 we reach the critical position below. <ajile>, please note that some of White's problems in this position on the e-file are a direct result of playing 8.Be2 which the engines do not like. We cannot be assured that GMVA will be "compelled" in any way to repeat this; however, for the sake of analysis, I will continue from the below noted diagram.


click for larger view

For several reasons, I do not like Nc4 here with the hole at b6 now being plugged....and because Black can so easily play Ne5 driving it away or forcing the exchange as in your line...white's advantage starts to slip here, so I will examine possible white improvements starting here.


click for larger view

Aug-16-11  ajile: Actually to be fair I really LIKE Be2 for White. Really limits Black's options for counterplay.

In the above line the play can be very tricky and strategic. One idea for White is to play Nc4 and then if ..Ne5 White drops the knight into either e3 or a3. The point is then Black's ..Ne5 is hanging in the wind with White playing f4 next. Since White has already played h3 the ..Ne5 will be forced back to d7. Or Black can try to stop f4 and this is where some lines with Black playing ..g5 come into play.

Very tricky stuff with White trying to gain space and at the same time trying to stop Black's counterplay with ..f5 or ..b5.

Note that White probably has to choose between h3 and f3. If he were to play both this would leave a big hole on g3. f3 has the advantage of supporting e4 while h3 has the advantage of stopping ..Nh5.

Aug-16-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  capafan: <ajile>I have been looking at Na3 in your line...you mentioned Nh5 earlier. I keep running into this after 15.Nc4 Ne5 16.Na3 Nh5 and the threat of f5 or Qh4 (after 17.Be3) gives white plenty to think about and white may never have a chance to play f4. You are much to optimistic about Be2 IMHO (btw any relation to Ivanchuk?)....
Aug-16-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <Garech> The position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 g6 7.f4 is the Four or Three Pawns Attack, depending on how you count pawns, I suppose. It could arise out of the KID Four Pawns attack if Black were to play ...c5, ...e6, and ...exd5 so I guess that's where the "Four" comes from, even though White's pawn front never exceeds 3 pawns. Oh well, that's accounting for you.

But regardless of the accounting, OE has 499 games with the Three Pawns attack (my name preference) position with White winning 47.1%, Black winning 30.9%, and 22% draws. So it's a sharp opening. The line you mention with 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.Nc3 g6 7.e4 Bg7 8.Be2 0-0 9.0-0 Re8 10.Nd2 Nbd7 11.f4 (I've omitted 10...a6 and 11.a4 on purpose) would seem to transpose into the Three Pawns Attack if White then plays Nd2-f3 (which be the logical thing to do to support the e4-e5 pawn push which presumably was the motivation for f2-f4) but with 2 tempo less (Nf1-f3-d2-f3 rather than just Nf1-f3). So you would think that Black should have an advantage with 2 additional tempi over the normal Three Pawns Attack line.

But chess is an interesting game. The supposed best line by Black against the Three Pawns Attack and similar formations is ...Bg4, ...Bx(N)f3 to eliminate one of the supporters of the e4-e5 pawn push as well as relieving Black's slightly congested game by exchanging one of the minor pieces. But your move order prevents ...Bg4 since after Nd2 there is no knight for the bishop to pin. Then 11...Nbd7 blocks the LSB so if Black had his heart on ...Bg4 after 12.Nf3 he would have to move the Nd7 again so White would effectively gain a tempo, not lose two.

So Black's best alternative would seem to be 11...Na6-c7 with the idea of supporting the ...b7-b5 pawn break with the knight as well as the rook and a-pawn after, say, 11...Na6, 12...Nc7, 13...a6, 14...Rb8. But this is slow, particularly if Black also needs to play ....Nfd7 to prevent White's e4-e5 pawn push. And the Bc8 is still undeveloped.

But in order for White to try to force e4-e5 he also needs to get his Be2 out of the way (Be2-c3) and get his rook on the e-file (Rf1-e1). These moves also take time and by ...Nfd7 and ...Qe7 Black has 5 pieces on e5 (Bg7, Nd7, Pd6, Qe7, Re8) so except as a sac (which, unfortunately, is quite possible since it gives White's Nc3 the jumping off e4 square) it's just not possible for White to FORCE e4-e5 unless Black lets him.

I personally don't favor the ...c4, ...Nc5 idea by itself unless it's coordinated with opening the b-file by ...a6, ...Rb8, and ...b5. ...b5 can usually be forced by Black by either (a) going slowly by ...b6, ...a6, ...b5 or (b) allowing axb6 e.p. after White's a5. Forcing ...b5 is more difficult if White continues with Ne2-c4 since at c4 it both hinders ...b5 and keeps pressure on Black's Pd6, particularly if combined with Bc1-f4 (which, of course, is not possible if White plays f2-f4).

My current area of exploration is avoiding the "automatic" ...Rf8-e8 and keeping the Rf8 to support the f7-f5 break. My reasoning is that by ...Nf6-e8 combined with ...Na6-c7 and ...Qe7 Black still has 4 pieces on e4 discouraging e4-e5, the Ne8 protects the Pd6 against possible attack by both White's Nd4 and Bf4, and the LSB is uncovered in case of ...f7-f5, e4xf5, ...Bc1xf5, Bc3xf5, and Rf8xf5. But I'm not ready to post any analysis just yet.

And, think of the Benoni as a hypermodern opening. If you are hypermodernist-inclined, you wouldn't automatically assume a large advantage for White as a result of his space advantage and better center. Otherwise openings like the Gruenfeld Exchange Variation would never be played by anyone. It all depends on how well White's center can be attacked by f7-f5. And if my suspicions are correct, in slow lines such as those involving White's Nf3-d2 or f2-f3, it can be attacked quite well.

Aug-16-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Garech: <AylerKupp>

Thanks for the detailed analysis - sounds like you really know your stuff, great to have people such as yourself on board. Cheers,

-Garech

Aug-16-11  ajile: <capafan>

I guess it's a matter of type of game you like. As a positional type the setup with Be2 is more annoying to me as Black then if White were to fianchetto on g2. Here is some more analysis on your line. As you mentioned ..Nh5 is a key freeing move which White can't ignore. This makes me question your Qc2 idea. But what else can White do? How does he gain any advantage since he has virtually maximized his position? a5 allows ..b5 so that doesn't work and f4 is dangerous because White has already played h3 weakening g3 and his k-side. The position requires extreme patience since a slight misstep could be fatal for either side.

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 c5 4.d5 d6 5. Nc3 exd5 6. cxd5 g6 7.Nd2 Bg7 8.e4 O-O 9.Be2 Qe7 10.0-0 Re8 11.Re1 Nbd7 12.h3 a6 13.a4 Rb8 14.Qc2 b6


click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 3 32-bit : 21 ply

1. ² (0.42): 15.Nc4 Ne5 16.Na3 Nh5 17.Be3 Qh4 18.Qd2 f6 19.Nc4 Nxc4 20.Bxc4 g5 21.Rab1 Nf4 22.Bxf4 Qxf4 23.Re3 Qe5 24.Rbe1 Qd4 25.Qe2 Ra8 26.Rg3 Qe5

2. ² (0.27): 15.b3 h6 16.Bb2 Nh7 17.Nd1 Bxb2 18.Qxb2 Ng5 19.f4 Nxe4 20.Bd3 f5 21.Bxe4 Qf7 22.Nc3 fxe4 23.Ndxe4 Qxf4 24.Qc1 Qxc1 25.Raxc1 Bb7 26.Nxd6 Rxe1+ 27.Rxe1 Nf6

So far sliding forward line #1 is petering out to a draw.

Aug-16-11  ajile: <AylerKupp: <Garech> The position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 g6 7.f4 is the Four or Three Pawns Attack, depending on how you count pawns, I suppose. It could arise out of the KID Four Pawns attack if Black were to play ...c5, ...e6, and ...exd5 so I guess that's where the "Four" comes from, even though White's pawn front never exceeds 3 pawns. Oh well, that's accounting for you. >

Isn't this the Taimanov Attack which we aren't seriously considering? If he plays 3.Nc3 I think most of us are in agreement we should not play a Benoni.

Aug-16-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  capafan: <ajile>< This makes me question your Qc2 idea. But what else can White do?>

I am not getting anywhere with the line I have quoted...as it stands it looks equal to me...therefore, there must be improvements for white earlier. :)

Be2, Qc2, h3 all look suspect in my line... h3 especially since I believe either f4 or f3 must be played sometime taking us back to the original game...these guys are good for a reason. :)

I am going back to 9.Be2, despite your assertion, to see if I cannot improve from there.

Aug-16-11  ajile: The point is what is the most difficult line for Black to handle?

I'm not seeing that White has any more advantage in these lines vs any other mainstream Black defenses. And if this is the case then why not play it since it leads frequyently to sharp middlegame play?

As to your question White doesn't have to play the positional Be2. Isn't Bd3 a more sharp option for this bishop's development?

Aug-17-11  cormier: H Banikas vs Radjabov, 2010
Aug-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<ajile> Isn't this the Taimanov Attack which we aren't seriously considering?>

No, the defining moves of the Taimanov Attack are 7.f4 and 8.Bb5+. If White plays 7.f4 without 8.Bb5+ then it's the Three (or Four) Pawns Attack, possibly almost but not quite as dangerous for Black as the Taimanov (but see below).

The reason why the Taimanov Attack is so dangerous for Black is that 8.Bb5+ forces Black's hand. Black only has 3 reasonable legal moves: 8...Bd7, 8...Nbd7, and 8...Nfd7, since I don't consider 8...Qd7, 8...Kf8, or 8...Ke7 as "reasonable". But who knows, we recently played 8...Kf8 in the Team White vs. Team Black and the sky didn't fall, so maybe it should be considered. Nah, just kidding.

But all this fear of the Taimanov Attack may be unwarranted since if push comes to shove it can be easily avoided after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.d4 exd5 5.cxd5 d6 6.e4 and now 6...a6, a move that Black often needs to make anyway. Poof, the big, bad Taimanov Attack is history. If White wishes to continue with a simiilar approach and try the Three Pawns Attack with 7.a4 g6 8.f4 there are only 3 games in the OE database, 2 White wins and 1 draw but none of them are very convincing to me since Black never tried to obtain q-side counterplay in any of them and played fairly passively in 2 of the 3 games. Andrew Kinsman in his "Modern Benoni" has 6 games with the Three Pawns Attack; 2 wins for White, 1 win for Black, and 3 draws, so it's hard to come up with a definitive evaluation.

So the Benoni may be equally playable (or equally unplayable, according to your opinion of the opening :-) ) after 3.Nc3 as after 3.Nf3 depending on the final veredict of the Three Pawns Attack. Talk about opening up another can of worms!

Aug-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<Open Defence> <AK> the line I posted specifically had to deal with 7.Nd2 from White....>

OK, but since White is not threatening e4-e5 after 7.Nd2 let me try to not move 9...Re8 and keep the rook behand the f-pawn to make the ...f7-f5 break easier. So from the following position after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. d5 d6 5. Nc3 exd5 6. cxd5 g6 7. Nd2 Bg7 8. e4 O-O 9. Be2


click for larger view

<Houdini 1.5a>: Houdini seems to like the slower b-pawn advance ...b7-b6 rather than quickly getting the semi-open b-file by ...a6, ...b5.

1. d=29, [+0.22]: 9...Na6 10.0-0 Nc7 11.a4 Qe7 12.h3 b6 13.Re1 Nd7 14.Nf3 Ne5 15.Bf4 Ba6 16.Nxe5 Bxe5 17.Qd2 Bxe2 18.Rxe2 Rfe8 19.Bxe5 Qxe5 20.Re3


click for larger view

Black has succeeded in relieving his congested position by exchanging 3 of the minor pieces. After 20...f5 I think Black has a very playable game. And so far so does Houdini at [+0.13], d=25. I'll let it run overnight.

2. d=28, [+0.22]: 9...b6 10.0-0 Re8 11.a4 a6 12.Bf3 Nfd7 13.Re1 Bb7 14.Rb1 Ne5 15.Be2 Qf6 16.Nf1 c4 17.Ne3 Rc8 18.f4 Nd3 19.Bxd3 cxd3 20.Qxd3 Nd7 21.Ng4 Qh4 22.Qe2 Nc5


click for larger view

This is a strange line with several questionable moves by Black. I don't think that Black has enough compensation for the pawn and IMO the eval should be higher in White's favor.

3. d=28, [+0.22]: 9...Re8 10.0-0 b6 11.a4 a6 12.Bf3 Nfd7 13.Re1 Bb7 14.Rb1 Ne5 15.Be2 Qf6 16.Nf1 c4 17.Ne3 Rc8 18.f4 Nd3 19.Bxd3 cxd3 20.Qxd3 Nd7 21.Ng4 Qh4 22.Qe2 Nc5 Same as PV #2 above with some move transpositions.

<Rybka 4.1>, d=25: Rybka has some odd ideas as to how to handle Black's q-side pawns.

1. [+0.32] 9...Nbd7 10.0-0 Re8 11.a4 a6 12.h3 b6 13.Qc2 Bb7 14.Nc4 Ne5 15.Ne3 Ned7 16.Re1 Re7 17.Nc4 Ne5 18.Bf4 Nxc4 19.Bxc4 Re8 20.Bg5 Qc7 21.b3 Nd7 22.Rac1 Ne5


click for larger view

White is somewhat better since Black's Ne4 can be kicked away by f2-f4 but Rybka played both sides very passively.

2. [+0.33] 9...Re8 10.0-0 Nfd7 11.f3 Nb6 12.Kh1 a5 13.Nc4 Nxc4 14.Bxc4 Nd7 15.Bb5 Qh4 16.Qc2 Re7 17.Bd2 Ne5 18.a4 Bh6 19.Bxh6 Qxh6 20.Be2 Qf4 21.Nb5


click for larger view

Clearly Rybka doesn't know what to do with the Benoni, although it finally got the idea to play on the k-side dark squares. But that q-side pawn play for Black was atrocious, and I don't see a good way to defend the Black Pd6 without retreating the knight, and then g2-g3 and f3-f4 starts White's k-side pawn avalanche moving.

3. [+0.33] 9...Nfd7 10.0-0 Re8 11.f3 Nb6 12.Kh1 a5 13.Nc4 Nxc4 14.Bxc4 Nd7 15.Bb5 Qh4 16.Qc2 Re7 17.Bd2 Ne5 18.a4 Bh6 19.Bxh6 Qxh6 20.Be2 Qf4 21.Nb5 Same as PV #2 above with some move transpositions.

Sigh . . . I don't think that either engine knows how to get the best of the position for either side. And both engines insisted on the typical ...Re8 for Black. So I'll need to slide forward to try to force ...f7-f5 with the rook still on f8. And definitely improve on Black's q-side pawn play!

Aug-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  AylerKupp: <<ajile> Isn't Bd3 a more sharp option for this bishop's development?>

Yes, Bf1-d3 is a sharper move than Bf1-e2. At d3 the bishop provides extra protection for the Pe4, inhibits Black's f7-f5 somewhat, and clears the e-file for the White rook on e1 which not only protects the Pe4 further but encourages the e4-e5 pawn break.

But the Bd3 allows a White Nf3 to be pinned and exchanged, something that usually helps Black since it relieves it's somewhat congested position slightly and eliminates the main supporter of the e4-e5 push. The Bd3 is also exposed to ...c4 (possibly as a gambit), opening up the c-file for a Black rook and the c5 square for Black's (typical) Nd7 that puts additional pressure on White's Pe4. And, if successful, an exchange of Black's Pc5 for White's Pe4 after ...c4, B(d)xc5, ...Nc5 and ...Nxe4 would typically favor Black.

So, yes, it's sharper but like most sharp moves it's double-edged. Then again, if you're not willing to play sharp, double-edged moves you probably shouldn't be playing either side of the Benoni.

Aug-17-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  Open Defence: < ajile: The point is what is the most difficult line for Black to handle? I'm not seeing that White has any more advantage in these lines vs any other mainstream Black defenses. > how are you gauging the advantage ? the eval ?

will post some further lines tonight or tomorrow morning...

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