< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 46 OF 58 ·
|Aug-31-11|| ||DaringSpeculator: <WinKing: Hey <capafan> you ready for your forum to get lit up like the 4th of July. I'm predicting 7.Bg5 from GMVA. 'Karnak' is back! ;)>|
After 7.Bg5, the most played reply is 7...Bb7. However it is somewhat drawish and so is 7...h3. Other possible replies are 7...Ba6, 7...c5, 7...d6. I think we should be prepared for 7.Bg5 and analyze all of these and if we don't find something exciting , we can always play 7...Bb7.
|Aug-31-11|| ||DaringSpeculator: By the way 7...c5 is the least drawish and gives Black the better chances.|
|Aug-31-11|| ||WinKing: <DaringSpeculator: By the way 7...c5 is the least drawish and gives Black the better chances.>|
I think you are right <DaringSpeculator> that 7...c5 may be the least drawish response. The only reason I think GMVA will go with Bg5 is how many chances do you get, without risking rating points, to correct a mistake. Here is his chance for a do-over at our expense. I have to believe he has come up with something since that fateful day in 2010 Akobian - Friedel 0-1.
|Aug-31-11|| ||capafan: <DaringSpeculator><By the way 7...c5 is the least drawish and gives Black the better chances.>|
I am unsure that this is true. 7...c5 is one of the least played of the truly viable alternatives, especially in recent high level games, both OTB and CC. Shulman played it recently, however it ended in a very short draw. In addition, I do not think it has the backing of our most senior CC players either. That said, if you have a line you would like to consider, please post it and we will take a look. I will scan the recent high level CC games for a game with 7...c5 to see what I can come up with.
In both the 7...Bb7 and 7...h6 lines, Black/White retains very good drawing chances although chances for gaining any great advantage for either side is slim, often due to the symmetry of the resulting positions. See my earlier posts...
|Aug-31-11|| ||morfishine: IMO if 7.Bg5 <7...Ba6> is best|
|Aug-31-11|| ||capafan: <morfshine><IMO if 7.Bg5 <7...Ba6> is best>|
This opinion is shared by more than a few. GMAN has used this line also. I do not have very much posted on the 7...Ba6 lines...if someone has the time and interest, we could use some analysis. Recent high-level OTB and CC games, chess engine analysis of some of the more critical positions, etc.
|Aug-31-11|| ||capafan: <morfishine>
Not exactly current, but the highest level OTB game I could find quickly...
Shirov vs Gelfand, 2007
Notice the symmetry in positions (pawn structures) in the endgame here also.
|Aug-31-11|| ||morfishine: <capafan> I'm partial to GM Danielsen's views on the <4.Qc2> Nimzo http://www.chess.co.uk/twic/video-t...|
Black seems to equalize easily, and since thats our first goal, this may be a starting point to look for a win [ie:via engine]
|Aug-31-11|| ||DPLeo: Here's what Houdini thinks of 7.Bg5
click for larger view
+0.00 7. ... h6 8.Bh4 Bb7 9.f3 d5 10.e3 Re8 11.Nh3 Nbd7 12.cxd5 exd5 13.Bf2 c5 14.Be2 cxd4
+0.00 7. ... Bb7 8.f3 h6 9.Bh4 d5 10.e3 Re8 11.Nh3 Nbd7 12.cxd5 exd5 13.Bf2 c5 14.Be2 cxd4
We are playing a very solid opening.
If this line is played, we will be fully developed going into the middle game and GMVA will be a little less developed and not even castled. But according to the eval there doesn't seem to be a way for black to take advantage of whites slow development.
|Aug-31-11|| ||capafan: <We are playing a very solid opening.>|
Solid, it seems, from both sides of the board...it will take great creativity to find something new...definitely a challenge.
|Aug-31-11|| ||WinKing: <morfishine: <capafan> I'm partial to GM Danielsen's views on the <4.Qc2> Nimzo...>|
Those are some nice videos <morfishine> on the Nimzo by Danielsen. I felt like I needed some more coffee (caffeine) or a hit of speed to keep up with him though. He was flying through those variations. His knowledge of this opening is inspiring to those who want to try & master it.
|Aug-31-11|| ||capafan: <DP Leo>< +0.00 7. ... h6 8.Bh4 Bb7 9.f3 d5 10.e3 Re8 11.Nh3 Nbd7 12.cxd5 exd5 >|
Up to move 13., this follows one of the CC games, that is posted in my header that <zsoydd> found. An example of how deep theory goes in this line and how closely the engines follow...
Personally, I am not a fan of ...h6 for Black. I have yet to find an instance where the move was justified other than an extremely minor concession in space...not that the other lines afford anything empirically better.
|Aug-31-11|| ||capafan: <WinKing>I suppose you have played through a good many of our options in this line...what are your thoughts?|
|Aug-31-11|| ||DaringSpeculator: <Houdini_15a_x64: <depth=33>
+0.00 7. ... h6 8.Bh4 Bb7 9.f3 d5 10.e3 Re8 11.Nh3 Nbd7 12.cxd5 exd5 13.Bf2 c5 14.Be2 cxd4|
+0.00 7. ... Bb7 8.f3 h6 9.Bh4 d5 10.e3 Re8 11.Nh3 Nbd7 12.cxd5 exd5 13.Bf2 c5 14.Be2 cxd4>
You realize that, according to houdini, these are the same line. So it seems it does not matter whether we play 7...h6 or 7...Bb7 first provided he follows houdini. Now if he deviates, we should get a slight advantage and it should be interesting to investigate which starting move will give us the bigger advantage in case he deviates from the above line.
|Aug-31-11|| ||capafan: <DaringSpeculator><You realize that, according to houdini, these are the same line.>|
No...I had not; however, as I have noted before, I am not a fan of h6 despite Rybka, Houdini or any other chess engine recommending the move. In the Dronov v. Dudyev game discussed below and in the forum header, Black never plays h6 and fares perfectly well in this line. ...h6 does not cost a tempo, but we should be able to utilize the move in a better way IMHO. An interesting test would be to force Houdini to omit the move and see what occurs...in my estimation at deep ply...not a lot.
|Aug-31-11|| ||WinKing: <capafan: <WinKing>I suppose you have played through a good many of our options in this line...what are your thoughts?>|
I have played through a few of our options <capafan> & believe, if Bg5, either 7...h6 or 7...Bb7 are fine for black. I know from your posts you are not a big fan of ...h6. It seems he has had trouble with this line(Bg5) for whatever reason I am not sure. The only thing I can come up with is he is more of a positional type player & 7.Nf3 makes him more comfortable developing his kingside & castling first. His methods have served him well & who are we to argue. I still think this is a great chance for him to play Bg5 & exorcise his demons in this line.
|Sep-01-11|| ||morfishine: <capafan> Thanks for <Shirov vs Gelfand 2007>; I can hardly wait for whites <7.>|
<Winking> Danielsen does move fast thru those clips. I'm on my third go around, so its starting to sink-in.
|Sep-01-11|| ||capafan: <zsoydd><7. Bg5 Bb7 |
8. e3 d6 9. Ne2 Nbd7
8.f3 h6 9.Bh4 d5 10.e3 Nbd7 11.cxd5 Nxd5 12.Bxd8 Nxc3 13.Bh4 Nd5 14.Bf2 Ne7
"The patzer in me warns you to stay away. But the correspondence player in me … hopes you won't listen.">
Below is a diagram after:
7. Bg5 Bb7 8. e3 d6 9. Ne2 Nbd7
click for larger view
At a glance, there may be more play to this position for Black than in the 7.Nf3 d6 8.e3 variations as the WN (without f3 as in the second game below) may be misplaced (Houdini rates the position about even). Looking at the above structure versus GMVA's preferred 7.Nf3...8.e3 setup, it is clearer now why he may prefer 7.Nf3 to 7.Bg5.
It is also noteworthy that the above position is the exact same position that was reached in the Dronov v. Dudyev game again appearing in the forum header and analyzed below a page or two ago which continued:
10.Qc2 c5 11.Rd1 Qc7 12.Nc3 a6 13.Qd2 d5 14.Bf4 Qc6 15.cxd5 Nxd5 16.Nxd5 exd5 17.Bd3 cxd4 18.exd4 Rfe8+ 19.Kf1 a5 20.Rc1
Compare this with the two games noted in the forum header that proceeded (after an earlier ...h6 Bh4 which can be omitted):
11.Qc2 c5 12.Rd1 cxd4 13.Rxd4 Qe7 14.Nc3 Ne5 15.f3 Rac8 16.Be2 Ng6 = Duliba(2548) - Pauwels(2396), ICCF, 2009, 1/2-1/2
11.Qd3 Qe7 12.Nc3 c5 13.Rd1 Rfd8 14.d5 exd5 15.cxd5 a6 16.Be2 b5 = Helbich(2543) - Acevedo Villalba(2653), ICCF, 2008, 1/2-1/2
White has other alternatives than the two moves shown above, but I like 11...c5 as an answer to most anything that white would play, including 11.b5. It is also noteworthy that Pauwels regularly plays the Keres Variation and another one of his games appears in the forum header...the one that is almost verbatim Houdini's line.
Oh, and as a sidelight...please note the omission of ...h6 from the most recent above game. :)
|Sep-02-11|| ||Hugin: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 0-0 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.Qxc3 b6 7.Bg5 d5 8.cxd5 exd5 9.Nf3 Ba6! (Stops 10.e3?!)
click for larger view
10.Rc1 c6 11.Qe3 Qd6 12.Bf4 Qd8 13.Ne5 Re8 14.Qf3 c5 15.dxc5 bxc5 16.Rxc5 Nbd7 17.Nxd7 Qxd7 18.Rc1 Rac8 19.Rxc8 Rxc8 20.g3 Qf5 21.Qb3 g5 22.Bd2 Ng4 23.f3 Qb1+
click for larger view
Black wins 0-1
Ok team invited to do some serious analysis on this line:).
|Sep-02-11|| ||WinKing: ...like the 4th of July :) - <Karnak>|
|Sep-02-11|| ||capafan: <WinKing>Okay, it was just interesting before, now it is eerie. BTW, When is our Vegas trip?|
<Hugin>Creative, as usual...I will take a hard look.
|Sep-02-11|| ||WinKing: On a more serious note though <capafan> seeing as 7.Nf3 seems to be his 'pet' line maybe he just didn't want to reveal any secrets. Besides, I think he has something to prove to himself in the Bg5 line. I don't know what he has in store for us but it should be a fun ride.|
|Sep-02-11|| ||isemeria: IIRC, there has been discussion about "...h6 or not to ...h6". Here's what GM Reynaldo Vera says on the issue in his comments to M Gurevich vs Leko, 2007. |
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. Qc2 O-O 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. Qxc3 b6 7. Bg5 Bb7 8. f3 h6! (Vera's exclamation mark)
<In this line, where Black will play ...d5 and in some variations recapture with ...Nxd5, attacking the queen, it is appropriate to force the bishop to h4, so that White does not have Qd2, defending the bishop.>
Good point if we intend to follow with ...d5.
|Sep-02-11|| ||capafan: <Hugin><RV><on 7...d5 perhaps 8.cxd5 exd5 9.e3 is best>|
<RV> is right, <Hugin>. If you wish to pursue 7...d5, start here. c7 is a real weak spot for black and after e3 and with the Black pawn on d5, placing the BLSB is an issue.
|Sep-02-11|| ||capafan: <WinKing><seeing as 7.Nf3 seems to be his 'pet' line maybe he just didn't want to reveal any secrets>|
In this way GMVA gets the best of both worlds...after the game he has a wealth of new and creative analysis on 7.Nf3, courtesey of <Boomie> and crew, and he yields no secrets of his own while possibly improving his repertoire in another line.
<isemeria><In this line, where Black will play ...d5 and in some variations recapture with ...Nxd5, attacking the queen, it is appropriate to force the bishop to h4, so that White does not have Qd2, defending the bishop.>
<Good point if we intend to follow with ...d5. >
Very interesting...the lines I posted earlier omitting h6 also omit d5 so there may be a great deal of truth to the point. My **absolute** no ...h6 should be likewise qualified. Thanks <isemeria>...
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