< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 543 OF 601 ·
|Jul-09-12|| ||chessgames.com: <FYI> Back in 2004 User: ianrogers came here claiming to be GM Ian Rogers. We've recently learned that this person was fraudulent. We deleted most of their posts and the replies to him by people who were sucked into his little fabrication.|
User: GMIanRogers is in fact the real deal, but he hasn't kibitzed (yet!)
|Jul-10-12|| ||Phony Benoni: <chessgames.com> Game Collection: WCC Index [Zurich 1953] has been updated with round and date information. Here is a list of some other historical tournaents which I know have been done:|
Game Collection: Tournaments Updated with Round/Date Information
|Jul-10-12|| ||YouRang: Just a reminder: Dortmund 2012 starts this Friday.|
|Jul-10-12|| ||chessgames.com: You are correct, and it's high-time we put up a discussion forum. Thx.|
|Jul-10-12|| ||chessgames.com: Have at it — Dortmund (2012)|
|Jul-10-12|| ||YouRang: Thanks :-)|
|Jul-11-12|| ||Alien Math: Wish to extend thanks all who helped for ability to provide text in Cyrillic letters without breaks in word, is of much use :)|
|Jul-11-12|| ||achieve: <chessgames> Could you explain to me please how the dispersement of games from the same tournament takes place in the records of players? In your database it sometimes is baffling how 9 games of a swiss are spread over three pages of (25) game pages.|
Not a big deal, but I wonder why this dispersement needs to take place. Searches become more difficult, and imprecise.
This is a question I had for years, but here you are.
|Jul-11-12|| ||WannaBe: (Random number generator + Gaussian Distribution - number of members logged) / (moon's phase + astrological sign - pi)|
|Jul-11-12|| ||chessgames.com: <achieve> It's really very simple if you understand the concept of indexes ("indices" if you prefer) in databases. Each game has a year field, and also a date-field. |
Logically, we should index everything first by year then by date. But years ago we decided not to for technical reasons. The thought was that since less than 2% of the games have the date-info filled in anyhow, it would make the index vastly larger/slower for not much of a benefit. And so we have indexes such as "ECO,year" and "Player,year".
When you sort something by year and there are a number of games with the same years, the order that they get spit out is effectively random. It's not truly random: it really depends on all sorts of behind-the-scenes details including deleted records and other boring things. Only MySQL knows for sure. For our purposes, it's random.
Since those early days, that 2% figure is now closer to 10%, and with the new Admin-Game Editor we'll be getting even more. The argument can be made that now we finally should index everything by year and date, and not just year. We agree. However that's a big change, with possible side-effects we haven't considered, so we've been slow in attempting to implement it.
It's worth mentioning: the one exception is when it comes to tournaments: there, the index is "TID,year,date" like it should be. The date field really does count when it comes to tourneys, and I'm sure you've noticed that our tournament pages are in chronological order. That's why it was so important for us to launch the Admin Game Editor prior to opening up the old tournaments for kibitzing.
|Jul-11-12|| ||The Last Straw: wait, how do you submit a game again?|
|Jul-11-12|| ||The Last Straw: I've got some games from Simon Webb's "Chess for tigers".|
|Jul-11-12|| ||WannaBe: Home page, right hand side column, towards the bottom is the PGN submission link.|
|Jul-11-12|| ||The Last Straw: except i would also like to know his game against hartston in the book (the ones the database have are different) and his game against sugden|
|Jul-11-12|| ||The Last Straw: thanks <WannaBe>|
|Jul-11-12|| ||The Last Straw: what does it mean like "your PGN Lacks the White code"?|
|Jul-11-12|| ||achieve: <CG> Thanks for your answer. So basically the vast majority of games reaches you without the date field properly and correctly relayed... Somewhat of a surprise, 2-10%, but indeed the "indices" concept leaves you little choice or room to orderly group tournament games together. You are correct that the general player pages show this dispersement, as I called it, much less so on Tournament pages. I am learning to trust that now, but always double-check for the exact date.|
I remember a few years ago having a discussion, or a lecture given even, by a member named <klangenfarben>, who lamented the PGN indices and proposed a new and improved system vastly superior to the PGN. That ship seems to have sailed. Stimulating discussion nonetheless.
|Jul-11-12|| ||Phony Benoni: <achieve: ...<So basically the vast majority of games reaches you without the date field properly and correctly relayed...>|
Perhaps that should read "reached". A spot check showed that games from the last few years, especially tournament games, include the full date field. That is probably because the date is readily available when the PGN is created.
Going back to previous years, even recently submitted games often lack the date field not because of carelessness, but because the information is simply not readily available. Many older games have been found in newspaper columns, magazines, or books which would give only the year.
A few days ago, I decided to update round and date information for the Zurich Candidates Tournament of 1953. I pulled out my copy of Bronstein's tournament book--and it did not give the exact days the rounds were played! (Fortunately, I was able to find the information elsewhere.)
|Jul-11-12|| ||achieve: <Phony Benoni> Thanks for your additional notes, correction, and I was nodding in agreement as I even today ran into that date problem while studying from an old Euwe/Prins book on Capablanca. Very few dates given alongside the analysed games, though always available from the narrative of the chapter, the introduction, or the index at the end. |
To illustrate: on page 174 the chapter reads as follows, "Kissingen, 12-24 August, 1928" - and indeed dates with the individual games are not, or coincidentally given.
Meticulously organized and well-written book, but the Games Register at the end only gives City and Year, not date.
I sorta like it; that's why we have to do the research. The book I have in front of me was published in <1949> ... "Databases? PGNs? What??!!"
But as I said, it's superbly organized.
|Jul-11-12|| ||crawfb5: <N> Most books, however good, give only site and year. Usually the other information has to be found elsewhere. For most of the collections I have been doing on US championship matches and tournaments, I found round and date information in period newspapers. It doesn't take too much of an article to get the basics, assuming the game itself is available elsewhere.|
Now that bio editors are now allowed to correct month, day, and round for games, expect the percentages to improve.
|Jul-11-12|| ||Phony Benoni: <The Last Straw> Games must be submitted in the Standard PGN format. A typical example is given on the submission page:|
[Event "London Match"]
[Site "London, England"]
[White "Bird, Henry E"]
[Black "Steinitz, Wilhelm"]
1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6
5.d4 Nc6 6.Bg5 Bg4 7.e3 Qd7 8.Bxf6 gxf6
9.Bb5 O-O-O 10.d5 Qe7 11.Bxc6 Qxe3+ 12.Qe2 Qc1+ 13.Qd1 Rde8+ 14.Bxe8 Rxe8+ 15.Kf2 Qe3+ 16.Kf1 Bxf3 17.gxf3 Bc5 18.Kg2 Rg8+ 0-1
Each bit of information is labelled by a specific tag or code; for example, <[White ""]>. If you do not use this format, the computer cannot tell properly interpret the information. Your error message "PGN lacks the White code" was probably the result of not having the <[White""]> code. It's also possible that you erased the quotation marks (""). I do that sometimes too, and they are essential.
This takes some practice and getting used to, so don't be surprised if there are problems with your first few attempts.
|Jul-11-12|| ||crawfb5: <The Last Straw> The easiest way to submit PGN files is by first entering the moves and game information into some chess software that will let you save the game as a text file. That not only helps proofread your moves by preventing you from entering illegal moves, but the software will make sure all the PGN format is correct when you save it as a text file. Then all you do is cut and paste from that file to the box on the PGN submission page.|
|Jul-12-12|| ||Stonehenge: <The Last Straw>
Here are six Webb-Hartston games:
|Jul-12-12|| ||chessgames.com: <The easiest way to submit PGN files is by first entering the moves and game information into some chess software> That is hands-down the recommended method. |
We quite often receive heroic efforts of chess fans who tediously typed every move by hand, even converting from descriptive to algebraic. Then when we process the game we find that a game of 80 moves might have two or three typos. Sometimes we can fix them by hand, other times they are too mysterious to fix, either way it's a pain for all involved.
By the way, the Librarian said that she's getting a number of year-changes lately, clearly from people who were adjusting dates and ran into the "you need to use a correction slip" message. That's great, and you don't need to stop, but I want you to know that this restriction is only temporary. Eventually we will allow editors to modify the year directly. We only suppressed the ability at first to be able to gauge how widespread it is, and also to be on the lookout for potential bugs.
|Jul-12-12|| ||chessgames.com: As some of you have heard, yesterday was the 40th anniversary of the first game of the Spassky-Fischer 1972 match, which got us thinking: now that we're collecting dates from historical games, we may consider a new feature similar to the "Happy Birthday" section of the homepage.|
Perhaps some of the GOTD of the upcoming year can be centenary celebrations of classics that have turned 100.
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