There are so many things to discuss in revelation, that we don't even know where to start.

So, for myself, i'd like to ask all of your opinions that regarding to Revelations, Israel (before tribulation) shall once again rule the whole of Jerusalem and animal sacrifices will resume in the temple, before the tribulation and the second coming of Christ happen?

None of the above. Essentially, the entire nation of Israel has rejected the Messiah. But God is going to rebuild a temple there for continuation of laws of the people who were supposed to be looking for, and ultimately rejected, the Messiah? That is a major fail in the common sense department.

<There is some prophecy that a red heiffer will be sacrificed?>

Thanks you for the welcome.

<There are so many things to discuss in revelation, that we don't even know where to start.

So, for myself, i'd like to ask all of your opinions that regarding to Revelations, Israel (before tribulation) shall once again rule the whole of Jerusalem and animal sacrifices will resume in the temple, before the tribulation and the second coming of Christ happen?

There is some prophecy that a red heiffer will be sacrificed?>

Regarding the restoration of Israel, <OCF> and I disagree. I think <OCF> believes Israel has rejected God, and so God has rejected them. But I believe the day is coming when they will recognize Christ as the Messiah, repent, and be restored.

However, IMO one should not delve into the details of Revelation without first establishing some appropriate guidelines for approaching and interpreting prophetic scripture -- which is where we are now in the conversation about eschatology.

If you've spent any time reading various commentaries on Revelation, you'll learn one thing for sure: There is a wildly wide range of ideas on how Revelation should be understood. I believe this is largely due to an idea that the rules for interpreting Revelation are different than the rules for interpreting other books of the Bible.

For example, from <playground player>'s comments, he interprets Revelation using a "holistic" approach through which the understanding comes at a subnormal level of consciousness. This approach sounds New Agey -- even to himself! ;-) And yet, I doubt that he uses that approach to understand other passages throughout the Bible that use figurative language.

I believe that Revelation is full of prophecies given in figurative language concerning real future events, and that a sound understanding of these prophecies is accessible to us -- IF we approach it properly.

Why? Because I look at all the prophecies of the Bible that have already been fulfilled, and I observe that they concerned real events and were understandable had they been interpreted properly. Seeing no reason to think that Revelation is different, I believe we can and should use those fulfilled prophecies to learn how to interpret prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled.

Daniel's prophecy does foretell a cleansing and re-dedication of the Temple in Jerusalem. That prophecy was fulfilled when the Maccabees expelled the Seleucids. Maybe confusion seeps in because Jesus refers to Daniel's prophecy in His own Olivet Prophecy (Matthew 24, etc.)--in which Christ speaks of events that have already occurred as if they were going to occur in the future.

<YouRang> I don't doubt that Revelation uses highly figurative language to speak of specific and real events in the future; but I do doubt very much that the prophecy is meant to be "deciphered," as it were, so as to yield a schedule of events. A great deal of time has been wasted, for instance, trying to show that the number 666 denotes a specific world leader of the speaker's own time, variously identified as Kosygin, Brezhnev, Reagan, Tony Blair, Obama, ad infinitum.

<Steamed Colleagues> This week's column

http://www.newswithviews.com/Duigon...

I agree.

<Daniel's prophecy does foretell a cleansing and re-dedication of the Temple in Jerusalem. That prophecy was fulfilled when the Maccabees expelled the Seleucids. Maybe confusion seeps in because Jesus refers to Daniel's prophecy in His own Olivet Prophecy (Matthew 24, etc.)--in which Christ speaks of events that have already occurred as if they were going to occur in the future. >

I agree again, although I believe Daniel foretold of *two* similar events -- one was the event you referred to related to Antiochus Epiphanies IV and the Maccabees (mainly in Dan 8 & 11). However, I think Daniel describes a different (still future) event (mainly in Dan 7, 9 & 12). You'll see that the descriptions of the two events, while similar, have significant differences. IMO, the future event is the one associated with 3 1/2 years (whether described as half of seven, or "time, times and half a time").

When Jesus mentioned Daniel's prophecy in Matt 24, he clearly must have been referring to the future event. However, the past event (concerning Antiochus) does serve as an illustration of the future event.

<<YouRang> I don't doubt that Revelation uses highly figurative language to speak of specific and real events in the future; but I do doubt very much that the prophecy is meant to be "deciphered," as it were, so as to yield a schedule of events.>

Well, we disagree there.

Rev 22:16a <“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches.>

Rev 1:3 < Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.>

Rev 22:6 <And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”>

So Revelation is a message from Jesus to the churches, we are blessed if we hear and keep its words, it is trustworthy and true, it is given for the purpose of showing us what must soon take place, and we even agree that it refers to real events -- and yet it's real meaning not meant to be comprehended by us? That idea doesn't make sense to me.

<A great deal of time has been wasted, for instance, trying to show that the number 666 denotes a specific world leader of the speaker's own time, variously identified as Kosygin, Brezhnev, Reagan, Tony Blair, Obama, ad infinitum.>

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I guess we can all have our turns on what approach to use.

Thanks for the nomination, lol.

Let's see if we can gain understanding by tightening the focus of this discussion. I don't intend the following as a challenge to you, but rather as an exploration of your methods.

Please select one prophetic event from Revelation (preferably one described in language that both of us would agree was figurative) and show me how you would interpret it as something that will actually happen in the future. For instance: is the destruction of "Babylon," described in Revelation 18, meant to represent the fall of Rome the city, Rome the empire, or some other city or civilization? If you can make an identification, what are your reasons for making that particular identification? (I hope I've expressed this clearly. If not, please advise, and I'll try again.)

I'm almost finished with my current reading of Revelation; but as long as we're on the subject, I think I'll read it again before returning to Matthew.

Absolutely. Revelation should be consistent with itself, with OT scriptures, and other NT scriptures.

<Let's see if we can gain understanding by tightening the focus of this discussion. I don't intend the following as a challenge to you, but rather as an exploration of your methods.

Please select one prophetic event from Revelation (preferably one described in language that both of us would agree was figurative) and show me how you would interpret it as something that will actually happen in the future.>

Okay, although before attaching meaning to particular verse, I would normally prefer to analyze the structure of Revelation. You've probably noticed some repeating patterns, and I believe that understanding the reason for the structure is important to seeing the overall message.

However, to answer your question, consider Rev 12:1-6 (although it doesn't all pertain to the future)

<12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.>

Clearly IMO, this woman is a figurative allusion to Israel, based on the similar imagery to Joseph's dream in Gen 37:9)

<2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,>

The child is clearly the promised child (e.g. Is 9:6), or Messiah. The dragon represents Satan, who evidently understands the purpose of the child and thus seeks to thwart that purpose by destroying him first. Being cast to earth and sweeping down 1/3 of the stars IMO refers to Satan's initial angelic rebellion.

The posture of the dragon (lying in wait to destroy the child), I believe refers to the kingdoms that dominated, persecuted, and often threatened to annihilate Israel up to and including the Roman empire. (This understranding comes from other passages in Rev 13 & 17 and from Daniel). That it says "but the child was caught up to God" indicates that the dragon failed in his purpose.

Now we come to the future part:

<6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.>

The 1,260 days is the 3 1/2 years spoken of by Daniel (Dan 7:25, Dan 9:27, and Dan 12:7) and earlier in Revelation 11:2-3. It marks the great tribulation period (Mt 24:21).

I believe this says that Israel will receive divine protection during the great tribulation. I believe this protection is spoken of in Zech 12 & 14. It is elaborated upon in v.13-17. Again, it refers to the dragon being cast down to earth (see v7-12), but I see this as a future event since he is said to have a "short time" and this time he pursues Israel for 3 1/2 years.

<13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood.>

Probably the flood refers to an army sent to destroy the fleeing Israelites.

<16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth.>

I take this to be some form of devine protection, which sounds remarkably similar to the devine protection Israel received when fleeing from the Egyptian army at the Red Sea (Ex 14).

<17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.>