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Jul-03-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  mifralu: <jnpope> <Can you share the provider? >

https://www.oldnews.com/en/search?q...

Jul-03-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: Thanks!
Jul-03-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <mifralu>, Thanks again. It was nice to finally update the citations for the <Boston Weekly Post> AND the <Boston Daily Traveller> (and I added some new text from the latter source).
Jul-04-25  Petrosianic: The bio for Glenn E Hartleb lists him as an Expert. But, as mentioned in the October 1961 issue of Chess Life, he actually made it to exactly 2200 in his final tournament, played days before he died. He's listed as a Master Emeritus in the December 1961 issue, since his 2200 rating couldn't be published, as he was no longer active. For that reason, his bio should be changed to list him as a National Master.
Jul-04-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Schlechter Memorial (1951)

CG had all the games but without round number and dates. It seems https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/... has more stuff now than before.

Jul-05-25  WilhelmThe2nd: I recently uploaded a couple of 'freestyle' games Tassilo von der Lasa played against <Elias van der Hoeven>.

They were processed and the PGNs are still here:

https://www.chessgames.com/nodejs/g...

https://www.chessgames.com/nodejs/g...

... but they are now no longer viewable:

Elias van der Hoeven vs von der Lasa, 1851

Elias van der Hoeven vs von der Lasa, 1851

Surely there is no problem with 'freestyle' games being submitted nowadays?

Jul-05-25  stone free or die: <W - ... but they are now no longer viewable:>

Just curious - does "no longer" imply there once were viewable?

.

Jul-05-25  WilhelmThe2nd: When I went through the games by looking for game ID's near the ones I had submitted, I do not recall seeing an error message. It was only later, after I noticed that there are no games posted under van der Hoeven's PID (Elias van der Hoeven), that I saw there was a problem.
Jul-05-25  stone free or die: Curious indeed - might be worth calling it to the attention of <steve> on the admin forum.

.

Jul-05-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: The problem was that the ECOs hadn’t been updated to 000, now rectified. How they made it through the submission process I don’t know.
Jul-05-25  stone free or die: So, a <[ECO "?"]> is enough to bounce a submission?!

Much too restrictive, <steve> still should get involved and the software tweaked.

Jul-05-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: Added:
Steinitz vs P Cummings, 1885

And we had the following as a casual encounter, dated July 9, 1886, which made no sense given the source date. I did some digging and found it to be from a simul given in 1885 during the same visit as the above game:
Steinitz vs F K Young, 1885

Jul-05-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <Much too restrictive, <steve> still should get involved and the software tweaked.>

If you can talk <Steve> into tweaking the submission upload form, can you have him expand the tag-length for the Source tag? It'd be nice to not have to fix those dumbass truncations.

Jul-05-25  stone free or die: Yes, <jn>, determined cuss I'd be glad to mention that again - having mentioned it already more than once.

But perhaps someone else should drop <steve> a note - you know, a multitude of voices making the choir sing the song (-- [ed] huh?!).

Jul-05-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <So, a <[ECO "?"]> is enough to bounce a submission?!>

Contrary to what I said before (which I said under the impression that Wilhelm's games had originally been visible), a 960 game will make it through submission, but it won't show properly unless the ECO is manually corrected by an admin to 000. Effectively, it will be in a state of limbo. I suppose submitting it with the ECO tag set to OOO will override the problem.

Jul-06-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: http://www.edochess.ca/players/p200...

Odd. No mention of Ware's three matches against Young in 1885.

Time to do a deep dive for results I guess.

Jul-06-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: And I didn't even need to dive deep, which makes their absence on EDO puzzling.

1st Match: Ware beats Young, +7=1-4
2nd Match: Young beats Ware, +10=0-7
3rd Match: Young beats Ware, +10=2-7

Sources:
<Boston Herald>, 1885.07.03, p2
<Brooklyn Chess Chronicle>, v4 n1, 15 October 1885, p2
<International Chess Magazine>, v2 n1, January 1886, p23

Jul-06-25  stone free or die: <jn> - one has to, somewhere in the back of your mind, remember EDOchess' humble beginnings.

Rod originally used a handful of select secondary sources. Only later did he gain the guidance of more experienced historically oriented researchers, e.g. Tim Harding and many others.

So, I think a snowballing effect happened, and he started gaining more and more qualified research contributors - and so more and more primary sources.

I think he got a lot of British and European guidance at first, and so it's not surprising to me that the American matches were missed.

Here's Rod's accounting:

<<Sources>

The results of matches and tournaments I used came from a number of sources. I relied heavily on Jerry Spinrad's collection of results, which he posted on the web, originally on the Avler Chess Forum, but now available here. (In case this becomes unavailable, I have taken the liberty of saving a copy of this document and it is available here.) These cover the period 1836-1863. He used several sources which are in many cases contradictory. In such cases, I usually took the more conservative result (the one closer to a 50-50 score) unless it seemed pretty clear that one was right (in some cases for example, drawn games might sometimes be omitted from the score, in which case, we wish to include them). In a few cases, the results were so wildly different in different sources that I excluded them altogether.

The other primary sources were Vols. 1 & 2 [& 3 & 4 (Feb. 2016)] of Jeremy Gaige's Chess Tournament Crosstables (along with Anders Thulin's extremely useful name index for Gaige's volumes) and the recent Chess Results, 1747-1900 and Chess Results, 1901-1920 [and Chess Results, 1921-1930 (Feb. 2016), Chess Results, 1931-1935 (May 2021), Chess Results, 1936-1940 (Nov. 2022), and Chess Results, 1941-1946 (Feb. 2024)], by Gino Di Felice. Gaige's was for many years the most definitive collection of tournament results for the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Gino Di Felice has attempted to improve on it, including even more tournament crosstables as well as match results. He has been partially successful, and this is a very valuable addition to the field of chess history, but he has apparently been a little less careful in some respects than might have been hoped, so that some results have to be treated with caution. An interesting (and largely encouraging) critique by Taylor Kingston appeared at the Chess Café site on the internet and I have found other errors or questionable information. A number of supposed 'matches' between Anderssen and other German players are included, some of which may not have been genuine matches, even of a casual kind. For example, the infamous Eichborn-Anderssen games are listed, totalling 28 games with a score of 27.5 - 0.5 in Eichborn's favour. But these games were recorded by Eichborn and it seems highly likely that he simply kept his few wins out of a great many casual games they played over a long period. I have not included these 'matches', nor several other dubious-looking match results of Anderssen's.

...

I also consulted Kuiper's Hundert Jahre Schachturniere and Hundert Jahre Schachzweikampfe. The results of the former are almost all covered by Gaige, who is probably more accurate, and thence Di Felice. The match results of the latter are also included in Di Felice. The Italian web site, ' La grande storia degli scacchi', I found useful as a check, and a source for the occasional minor event not covered in the main sources.

Then I consulted a number of standard reference works, including the encyclopaediae of Sunnucks and Golombek, as well as both editions of the excellent Oxford Companion to Chess by Hooper and Whyld. I also used a few other miscellaneous books, such as Staunton's book on the London 1851 tournament and Wade's Soviet Chess (where the Petrov-Baranov match of 1809 is mentioned [actually Petrov-Kopiev (June 2013)]).

Finally, I used reputable-looking internet sites to add some more obscure results here and there, including sites for American, Irish and German chess history for example. Particularly notable is the fantastically rich 'The Life and Chess of Paul Morphy' site by 'Sarah' and several of the columns at ChessCafé.

[I have now been through a number of other sources, including books, periodicals, and web sites. References are now included on the player pages, as well as on the event pages. (Added Jan. 2010)]>

http://www.edochess.ca/Edo.explanat...

You'll notice a mention of he-who-must-not-be-mentioned, with similar concerns.

YMMV - this is my take on EDOchess' evolution.

Jul-06-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: I would have fully expected him to at least flip through the pages of the US chess periodicals by now. He's got some fairly obscure stuff dug out of chess columns, so overlooking the easily available low-hanging fruit somewhat puzzles me especially when they are on his sources list.
Jul-06-25  stone free or die: You're a quick reader.

Rod is primarily a mathematician, and not a chess historian. I imagine he is relying on the community for input and guidance, and not combing the primary sources himself.

You might consider contacting him, he is responsive and a rather nice fellow (from what I can tell).

He certainty has a very high quality website.

.

Jul-06-25  stone free or die: <jn> - since your name appears in the following, I guess you've already corresponded with him.

http://www.edochess.ca/Contributors...

.

Jul-06-25  stone free or die: PS- if you give the contributor list a once-over, it's easy to see how Rod's EDOchess would have some very obscure stuff.

As I said, his contributors have far out-stripped his initial sources.

I'm sure the <Ware//Young> stuff would be quickly incorporated into EDOchess if brought to his attention.

.

Jul-06-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  jnpope: <I have been systematically mining 19th century sources that are available to me, but have reached only to 1875 so far for most of them, to 1876 for some of the British sources, and 1878 for the Illustrated London News column. For early German and Dutch sources I have systematically covered up to 1871 so far.>

Ok, so he hasn't gotten into the 1880s. Maybe he'll get there someday.

Jul-06-25
Premium Chessgames Member
  Tabanus: Schlechter Memorial (1947)

No prodigies participating, and fifteen rounds without any rest day. I added xtab, the few sources I could find, and 120 dates + two round numbers.

Jul-06-25  stone free or die: Wow <Tab>, you included ages in the xtab!

(Gotta love it)

With the possible exception of the two unknowns, Szabo is one of the youngest at 30 yo.

"No prodigies participating..." indeed.

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