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< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 475 OF 475 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-18-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: Re Alekhine,

There was a call by some readers of Chess Review to strip Alekhine of his title (and to stop publishing his games.)

December 1942 a letter from the actor J. Edward Bromberg kicked it off due possibly to the infamous articles leaking out but it was following an article on Alekhine and some of the games he was playing in Germany.

"I say let’s keep him and his games out of Chess Review…declare the world championship vacant...”

There followed letters in support and against the motion. (those against were mainly against banning his games.)

No doubt other letters in the same style were hitting the in tray in other chess publications.

May-18-22  Z free or die: RE- Bogo

I seem to remember that he joined the Nazi party - which Tartajubow confirms (I remember seeing a scan of his Nazi membership number someplace or another):

<It has been claimed that in 1938 he became a Nazi so as to keep his home in Germany, and to assure that his daughters could go the University. Also, he supposedly made this decision because his wife wanted to remain in Germany.

Some have said Bogoljubow did not seem to have been ideologically inclined and was said to have disliked the Nazis intensely but even in 1950 FIDE didn't make him a Grandmaster allegedly because of his alleged 'Fascism'. He finally got the title the next year,not long before his death in 1952.>

http://tartajubow.blogspot.com/2012...

May-18-22  Z free or die: I see Petronsianic is pursuing more research on Bogo:

Efim Bogoljubov (kibitz #355)

I'll defer to his research efforts for the moment (I just popped in anyways)...

May-18-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: Joining the Nazi Party did not axiomatically conflate, in those days, with being a Nazi, in the same way that many in the Soviet epoch were hardly committed Communists.
May-18-22  Petrosianic: <MissScarlett: What majority of players had declared Alekhine unacceptable?>

If you read the whole quote, rather than just random words, it's clearly talking about a hypothetical future time. You always seem to make a half dozen mistakes, trying to squeeze one out of someone else. Even if you got the one, it hardly seems a bargain.

May-18-22  Petrosianic: <perfidious: Joining the Nazi Party did not axiomatically conflate, in those days, with being a Nazi, in the same way that many in the Soviet epoch were hardly committed Communists>

Right, however there's no denying that he was a member, even if only under coercion, for whatever that's worth. But the bio's claim that FIDE claimed he was "an ardent supporter of Hitler" is something I can't find in the contemporary sources I've checked. He didn't make any of the waves that Alekhine did, and the source that knew him described him as decidedly anti-Hitler. FIDE gave him a clean bill of health in 1947, and said it was up to individual organizers to decide whether or not to invite him to tournaments.

May-18-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Serious talk now equates to a hypothetical majority in a hypothetical future.

<Judy Garland Somewhere Over The Rainbow 1939> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oW2...

May-18-22  Petrosianic: <MissScarlett: Serious talk now equates to a hypothetical majority in a hypothetical future.>

Exactly, now you've got it. If you thought all this time that the action came first and deciding on what the action would be came afterwards, you've been doing it wrong all these years. That would explain a lot, actually.

May-18-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: How does one distinguish serious talk from non-serious talk?
May-18-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: < Before Alekhine died, there was seriously hypothetical talk of trying to strip him of the title.>

This I could put my name to.

May-18-22  Petrosianic: You're just repeating mistakes now hoping they won't be mistakes on the second or third go round. Shirley, you understand why making the plan comes before acting on the plan, you're just too invested in the mistake to be able to admit it at this point.
May-18-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: The only apparent mistake is your thinking you can get the better of me. Won't happen, can't happen.

One can be sure FIDE didn't attempt to take Alekhine's title away, for the simple reason that it wasn't theirs to take. I can't make it any plainer for you.

May-19-22  Petrosianic: You're right there. I didn't get the better of you, you got the better of yourself. I've been urging you towards the correct answer all the time.

Now you're confusing the question of whether or not FIDE had the right to do something, with whether or not they might have actually done it with or without the right, which, of course, wasn't the question either.

Is there a language barrier here? Your English seems pretty good, but maybe not as good as I think. So many conversations seem to get hung up over you misunderstanding plain English. Is this a dodge, or do you really not understand things like why someone would make a plan before acting on it?

I had a similar conversation today with someone who could not for the life of him grasp why first run viewers of a certain TV show couldn't spot how an episode contradicted a LATER episode (i.e. one that didn't <exist> at the time!). Is there a massive epidemic of feigned ignorance today, or have people just been going extra heavy on the Dumb Water?

May-19-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Petrosianic....But the bio's claim that FIDE claimed (Bogolyubov) was "an ardent supporter of Hitler" is something I can't find in the contemporary sources I've checked. He didn't make any of the waves that Alekhine did, and the source that knew him described him as decidedly anti-Hitler....>

Reading your posts elsewhere which cite Bohatirchuk, Bogo clearly had little use for the Communists either and actually came across as apolitical, whereas Alekhine was nothing if not an opportunist throughout life.

May-19-22  Retireborn: I've read somewhere that Bogo only joined the Nazi party to enable his daughters to go to University.
May-19-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <Retireborn: I've read somewhere that Bogo only joined the Nazi party to enable his daughters to go to University.>

<Petrosianic> mentions this, inter alia, in the ongoing discussion at Bogolyubov's page.

May-19-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: For the benefit of future historians, I’ve seen serious talk on Twitter that Karjakin should be banned FOREVER.
May-19-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: I wonder if a total ban was on the table and discussed at the FIDE meeting when they decided to ban Karjakin for six months. That would have been an example of 'serious talk.'

There will also be 'serious talk' after the six months is up from organisers inviting Karjakin and players possibly refusing to play him.

Recently a player in the 4NCL (a very popular 4 player team event held in the UK) this lad Roger Emerson stopped playing after one move and lost on time v this lad Alexander Cherniaev in a protest about the Russian invasion. Here is the game.

https://www.chess.com/events/2022-4...

Apparently one move was played so Emerson's team would not suffer an extra default penalty for a 'no show.' (a no show is a £20 fine.)

This protest was v a player who has been a UK resident for a number of years, has spoken out against the invasion and is seeking to change federations to England. Having said that, the player refusing to play on, whether or not you agree, their views must be respected.

If feelings are running this high in a local team event what will happen when Karjakin's ban is up.

May-19-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: < I wonder if a total ban was on the table and discussed at the FIDE meeting when they decided to ban Karjakin for six months.>

What do you mean here by total? A ban from all events that FIDE would be prepared to rate? Or an unlimited time ban?

<Recently a player in the 4NCL (a very popular 4 player team event held in the UK) this lad Roger Emerson stopped playing after one move and lost on time v this lad Alexander Cherniaev in a protest about the Russian invasion.>

Silly twit. Why didn't he go the whole hog, join Extinction Rebellion and glue himself to a road? Now, if he resigned in protest against Cherniaev playing the Dutch Defence, he would have had my sympathy.

May-19-22  Z free or die: From <Olavi>'s link to Christian Rohrer's

<World Chess Champion and Favourite of Hans Frank? -
Assessing Alexander Alekhine’s Closeness to the National Socialist Regime>

article comes a brief paragraph pointing out some of the potential weaknesses of the Chess Biographer, be it on <CG> or elsewhere:

<Beyond the concrete case, typical, fundamental problems of contributions to chess history come to light here. Just as there are trained historians and those without training since anyone may call themselves a historian in the absence of a legally protected professional title, the same applies to chess historians and historians concerned with chess history. Typically those interested in chess history, who are usually also more or less skilled chess players, become chess historians without corresponding training by publishing on chess history. This does not necessarily mean that their contributions are useless from a historiographical point of view.38 On the contrary, these specialists often do a great deal to illuminate aspects of chess history, and they do so with a chess player’s meticulousness, which can compete with the meticulousness of a historian. However, contributions by chess historians often fall short of the requirements of historical scholarship on three central points: despite all the thoroughness, there is a lack of evidence, or only insufficient proof cited for the claims made, such that statements cannot be verified. Similarly, there is often a lack of knowledge of the relevant archival landscape, which is why published sources are given too much weight over archival records. It must be conceded that there is indeed a structural problem in that chess produces far less archival material than, for example, government agencies. Finally, there is often a lack of appropriate embedding of individual pieces of information in the relevant historical contexts, so that individual pieces of information may be named but not understood. >

May-19-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Another new profile pic....Daniel Harrwitz and of inferior quality to the one before.

Who is responsible? Should editors be allowed to upload new pictures unilaterally?

May-19-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: Hi Miss S,

'What do you mean here by total?'

As I said I wondered if a lifetime ban was discussed and where did they got the six months from, was this just to stop him from playing in the candidates.

May-20-22  Z free or die: <Trapped like the monkey who reaches into the bottle to grab the peanut but can't get his hand out while he holds the peanut.>

Kingcrusher goes back to 2007 to find patzerboy's comment:

Marshall vs Capablanca, 1918 (kibitz #6)

But just from 2004 is this very revealing and significant comment:

<The problem with erroneous moves in PGN files is legion, and is certainly not unique to Chessgames.com. Even Chessbase, who I consider to be the most respected chess archivists, have many mistakes in thier [sic] game scores. One of the functions of this site is to sort through different sources of games and try to ascertain what is correct. We hope, one day, to have the most accurate collection of famous games available.>

Especially notable is the final statement, which I'll repeat:

<We hope, one day, to have the most accurate collection of famous games available.>

Marshall vs Capablanca, 1918 (kibitz #5)

How well are we doing?

May-20-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: <How well are we doing?>

Quite well I'd say.

The idea of having a thread for each game, famous, infamous or standard was inspired.

Add in the the bio details of the players with the snippets of info in the players thread and that make this place a must see for researchers, authors, journalists, bloggers, enthusiasts and alike.

If a game is mentioned in an online newspaper column or chess piece (Ray Keene in 'The Article' for example) or in another forum then they often link to here to show the game in question.

Also it can be good fun working out and fixing a broken PGN.

May-22-22
Premium Chessgames Member
  Stonehenge: From the Editor Notes:

<changed ECO tag from "D01" to "A45" -- Stonehenge> etc. There's much more of this nonsense.

Be advised that I did *not* change all those ECOs.

Apparently it happened when updating something else, like the date.

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