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The Chessgames.com Challenge
The World vs Natalia Pogonina
C U R R E N T   P O S I T I O N

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Can a group of chess amateurs team up to beat a grandmaster?  Find out in the Chessgames Challenge!  You can vote for the move you think is best, and discuss the game with other members on this page.

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[Natalia Pogonina]

[flip board] GAME OVER: 1/2-1/2 [flip board]

MOVES:
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.g3 Bb4+ 5.Bd2 Be7 6.Bg2 c6 7.O-O O-O 8.Qc2 b6 9.Rd1 Nbd7 10.Bf4 Ba6 11.Nbd2 Rc8 12.Rac1 Nh5 13.Be3 Nhf6 14.Bg5 h6 15.Bxf6 Bxf6 16.b4 Bb7 17.Qb3 Ba8 18.c5 a5 19.a3 Rb8 20.Qc2 Bb7 21.e4 Qc7 22.Nf1 dxe4 23.Qxe4 Rfd8 24.Ne3 Ba6 25.Ng4 Bb5 26.Qc2 axb4 27.axb4 Be7 28.Ra1 h5 29.Ne3 Bf6 30.Ra3 bxc5 31.bxc5 Ra8 32.Rxa8 Rxa8 33.Bf1 Bxf1 34.Kxf1 e5 35.dxe5 Nxe5 36.Qe4 Nd7 37.Qf5 Ra7 38.Qxh5 g6 39.Qg4 Nxc5 40.h4 Ra4 41.Nc4 Qb7 42.Kg2 Qb3 43.Qc8+ Kg7 44.Nd6 Qxd1 45.Ne8+ Kf8 46.Nxf6+ Kg7 47.Ne8+ Kf8 48.Nf6+ Kg7 49.Ne8+ Kf8 50.Nc7+ Kg7 51.h5 Ra1 52.h6+ Kf6 53.Qh8+ Ke7 54.Qe8+ Kd6 55.Qd8+ Nd7 56.Ne8+ Kc5 57.Qe7+ Kb6 58.g4 Ra4 59.Qd8+ Ka6 60.Nf6 Rf4 61.Ne5 Rxf2 62.Kxf2 1/2-1/2
GAME OVER thank you for playingit is now 18:04:06
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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 331 OF 1069 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-28-10  LIFE Master AJ: <<<< <Sep-28-10> Thanh Phan: > Very nice summary on your page shown <LMAJ> :)> many thanks for that>

You are VERY welcome!!!!

Don't forget my analysis! And even more importantly ... the analysis of the WHOLE TEAM!!! (I just wanted a page where I could summarize things. You know the old saying, "A picture is worth a thousand words.")

Sep-28-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Golden Executive: < kb2ct:
<Golden Executive:>

<I am sorry. I am even more prone to typological errors when I post from my phone. What I meant to say is that the Olympiads were even more difficult when games used to be adjourned. Teams of endgame specialists used to analyze all night and explain theory and traps to the players when they woke in the morning.>

Thanks for clarify. All your comments are welcome

Sep-28-10  drmike55: Hi all. Just joined. Very average player, I am.

Surely ... Bb7. 11. Nc3 seems natural?

Mike

,

Sep-28-10  deathdefier: ad <MasterAJ>: your new page is a perfect summery ... helpful and cool!

i absolutely agree ...
first i feared the line Bb7 Nc3 dc4, but now i dont believe she will choose this line, because the positions are a little bit "passiv but solid" (Robert Hübner); we would have the more active position (a very interesting position ... i would learn a lot ...); but i think, she wants to win the game and in this line its more difficult than in the other ones (the other lines are more strategically complex, ...);

until now she played in similar positions Ba6 ... and we can respond with b3 -> QID or Ne5 ... others?; are you ready for a second new page, if she ...? SMILE

Sep-28-10  deathdefier: ad <Tabanus> i think Ne5 is a very good move after Ba6; the only line i fear is:
10. ... Ba6 11. Ne5 (any other suggestion?) Rc8 12. Nc3 Bc4 13. Nc4 dc4 14. e4 b5! i analysed 15. a4 (what else?) a6

and now f.e. 16. Bh3 (better because more complex than the lines ab5 ab5 d5 ->Hammer-Adams) or Ra6; but perhaps Bf3!?! ...) 16. ...b4 17. Nb1 Qa5 18. Nbd2 c3

(17. ... b3 18. Qe2 Qa5 19. Bg2 Rfd8 20. Qc4 +0.37;
18. ... Qh5 19. Bg2 g5 = +0.00)

19. bc3 Qh5 20. Bg2 c5 21. d5 g5 22. Be3 ed5 23. ed5 Ng4 24. Nf1 = +0.00


click for larger view

Sep-28-10  Waitaka: <LIFE Master AJ> Your summary is perfect, thanks very much.

But I am a little concerned that it is on a public page, and that she "accidentaly" bumps into it.

I know it may be a minor concern, once her husband is probably following this forum on a different nickname anyway.

Sep-28-10  ossipossi: I think b3 is not to play against Bb6 (we all have chosen, I myself voted b3 one move ago). Analysis has gone far enough (although I'm few more than a spectator) to build a plan which is barely common in all lines: "white attacks". And b3 is after Bb6 a defensive move. Alekhine would be horrified. But yes, it's a democratic move (half people voted it one move ago) and an understandable one. But stuffs two plans in one.
Sep-28-10  Garech: <------ loving his new avatar!!

<deathdefier> ad <MasterAJ>: <your new page is a perfect summery ... helpful and cool!

i absolutely agree ...
first i feared the line Bb7 Nc3 dc4, but now i dont believe she will choose this line, because the positions are a little bit "passiv but solid" (Robert Hübner); we would have the more active position (a very interesting position ... i would learn a lot ...); but i think, she wants to win the game and in this line its more difficult than in the other ones (the other lines are more strategically complex, ...);>

I agree, <LMAJ's> webpage is great!

I'm glad too that you have seen there is no need to fear Bb7 Nc3 dxc4. As you say, black becomes very passive (despite having the bishops and white's temporarily damaged pawn structure) and white has a very clear and simple strategy to work with on the queenside. In an engine vs. engine game I think the winning of the c6 pawn (or at least one of the pawns on the queenside) would be inevitable. We just have to figure out how to transfer this into a win. GMs have all kinds of tricks to draw positions and games. Her superior knowledge in this respect (and others, particularly in the endgame) is a big concern - and we can't wait until we get to the bridge before we cross it!

When the time comes (during the middlegame, probably) I'm going to set up an endgame forum where we can pool our resources - engines, theory, namilov tablebases, open discussion etc regarding potential endgames from the current position.

I wish she would hurry up and make her move!!

-Garech

Sep-28-10  Garech: <izimbra> <thegoodanarchist> <Here is another line in the Garech Gambit. It looks fairly decent:

10.Bb7 11.Nc3 dxc4 12.e4!? gambit

12.a6 >

<I'm really skeptical that white has a good line after 12...b5. Everything I've looked at with any engine is close to losing for white in that continuation. So please, whoever is working on this, focus on 12...b5 first!>

Would you mind elaborating on these conclusions? Which lines have you looked at, and do they include a well timed Bg5? Also - what do you define as a "losing" position? If your evals are saying -0.50 then white has a significantly stronger position, having given up a pawn to gain dominant pieces and a better pawn centre.

To be honest, I would be quite surprised if GMP aimed to hold onto this pawn for the rest of the game and then win the endgame. It would result in a passive and limited position where she cannot make progress and in any case, it's often easy to draw endgames a pawn down. If she gives the pawn back then we have gained our positional advantages for no material investment.

If you are a materialist, of course - or if you are simply taking your engine as gospel - it won't appeal to you. But if you don't mind taking risks and enjoy dynamic, positional play - then it should be more to your liking.

At least entertain it! If everyone thought this way, many gambits would never be played.

-Garech

Sep-28-10  cormier: - - Fritz 12, 99999s/Move ----------


click for larger view

Analysis by Fritz 12: only dpa = 20 done

1. = (0.00): 11...Nh5 12.Be3 Nhf6 13.cxd5 Nxd5 14.Qd3 Rc8 15.Nc3 Nb4 16.Qc4 Nc2 17.Rac1 Nxe3 18.fxe3 Nf6 2. = (0.06): 11...b5 12.c5 Nh5 13.Be3 f5 14.Nf3 g5 15.Nc3 f4 16.Bd2 g4 17.Ne1 e5 18.Nxb5

(, ---------- 28.09.2010)

Sep-28-10  hms123: <Garech> <izimbra> Nice avatars. If either of you needs help with opening your forums (esp. when it comes to hiding comments from NP), please feel free to stop by my place and ask.
Sep-28-10  hms123: FYI:

<Extensions remaining: 3>

Sep-28-10  Thanh Phan: My thanks <hms123> on update
Sep-28-10  lost in space: Following the OE after 10...Bb7 11. Nc3 (most common moves)

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/ches...

Sep-28-10  ossipossi: Oops. I meant Ba6, not Bb6 (That's because in Italian B-ishop is A-lfiere, so I keep on confusing -a- with -b-), true is that I see a lot of work on Bb7, but GMP style IMHO lends more on Ba6 (more aggressive). So told, b3 remains an hybrid plan, unless we want use b2 square for the Alfiere/Bishop). But this manoeuvre can be posposed.
Sep-28-10  Marmot PFL: <The ELO difference between the players should be factored into those percentages on a per game basis. Just some manipulation of probability distributions, not a big deal.>

It should cancel out, if it doesn't and the higher rateds are always on the same side of a position that should tell you something.

Sep-28-10  Garech: In other news, is anyone following the Olympiad? Specifically, the progress of Ivanchuk, who is on 6/6.

His game today vs. Jobava (who beat Carlsen the round before) was remarkable. It must surely have been opening preparation and Ivanchuk refuted it OTB in an amazing fashion - the way that only he can. Hopefully it will be uploaded to this site soon - until then it's available at chessbomb.com if anyone is interested in seeing it.

-Garech

Sep-28-10  ajile: <Garech:
I'm glad too that you have seen there is no need to fear Bb7 Nc3 dxc4. As you say, black becomes very passive (despite having the bishops and white's temporarily damaged pawn structure) and white has a very clear and simple strategy to work with on the queenside. In an engine vs. engine game I think the winning of the c6 pawn (or at least one of the pawns on the queenside) would be inevitable. We just have to figure out how to transfer this into a win. >

I've been studying these positions also for days and while White has a space advantage I have not seen a single line where White can win this (c6) pawn or any other. The lines at deep ply are all close to 0.00. But I still prefer this line because it's more dynamic. We stay solid, make good moves and wait for a mistake by Black.

I see also LFAJ has indicated he has been analyzing this line for days but I can't find any of his lines in the Tree. Perhaps someone can ask him to copy his analysis there?

Thanks.

Sep-28-10  tensor: <LMAJ>Congs for the job. The explanations at your page are simple and plain, and as I know you like 11.Nc3, it's honest from your part to say that 11.Ne5 is almost equal. And, btw, I do believe that once again, the votes will split fairly.
Sep-28-10  YouRang: <blue wave: You know I was thinking today about this game (on my birthday I know) don't tell my wife. That the position lableled as a "monstrosity" by You Rang has one thing that I do like. >

For the record:
Whoever it was who called it a "monstrosity" was not quite me.

Sep-28-10  cormier: - - Fritz 12, 99999s/Move ----------


click for larger view

Analysis by Fritz 12:(dpa = 23 done0)

1. = (-0.02): 11...Rc8 12.e4 c5 13.exd5 exd5 14.Nc3 cxd4 15.Nb5 Ba6 16.Nxd4 Re8 17.Nf5 Bf8 18.Ne3 2. = (0.00): 11...Nh5 12.Be3 Nhf6 13.Bf4

(, ---------- 28.09.2010)

Sep-28-10  hms123: <drmike55> Welcome to the team. As you can tell from reading the comments the past week or so, we have spent a lot of time analyzing the position. If you haven't had a chance yet to read through the past ten pages or so, it would be well worth your while.

For a good summary look here: http://www.ajschess.com/lifemastera...

Also, you might want to read this information for new team members: User: team member advice

Sep-28-10  jusmail: @LMAJ:
On your website you write:
11.cxd5
. Although the experts with the engines think that this move promises a little something, I can absolutely tell you that I think that our winning chances after this move are very slim. (As a master, I think that it would virtually guarantee a draw.)

So does this apply to only this game..... or should the cxd5 exd5 maneuvers in many a gambit games be avoided? Thanks!

Sep-28-10  bayowulf: Holy smokes - another extension! We should have all good lines analyzed to death by next week.

Assuming she plays computers moves my feeling is that it looking drawish - the longer I let the engines analyze the closer the evals get to 0.00.

Sep-28-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  kutztown46: It was I who described a certain position as a monstrosity in this post:

kutztown46 chessforum which was also posted on the main page.

However, I am very pleased with the arrangement that if I say something controversial, <YouRang> gets blamed for it. ;-)

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