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TOURNAMENT STANDINGS
Mercosur Cup Tournament

Shredder (Computer)8.5/10(+8 -1 =1)[games]
Andres Rodriguez Vila6/10(+4 -2 =4)[games]
Pablo Lafuente5.5/10(+3 -2 =5)[games]
Diego Valerga5.5/10(+2 -1 =7)[games]
Daniel Fernandez5/10(+2 -2 =6)[games]
Carlos Garcia Palermo4.5/10(+3 -4 =3)[games]
Daniel Mieles Palau4.5/10(+2 -3 =5)[games]
Salvador Alonso4.5/10(+4 -5 =1)[games]
Sergio Slipak4/10(+1 -3 =6)[games]
Enrique Alejandro Scarella3.5/10(+1 -4 =5)[games]
Jose Fernando Cubas3.5/10(+2 -5 =3)[games]

 page 1 of 3; games 1-25 of 55  PGN Download
Game  ResultMoves YearEvent/LocaleOpening
1. S Alonso vs D Fernandez  ½-½292005Mercosur CupB33 Sicilian
2. J F Cubas vs Shredder 0-1652005Mercosur CupA00 Uncommon Opening
3. C Garcia Palermo vs A Rodriguez Vila  0-1262005Mercosur CupA46 Queen's Pawn Game
4. P Lafuente vs S Slipak  1-0402005Mercosur CupE04 Catalan, Open, 5.Nf3
5. D Valerga vs D Mieles Palau  1-0292005Mercosur CupB32 Sicilian
6. S Slipak vs C Garcia Palermo  1-0332005Mercosur CupE17 Queen's Indian
7. E Scarella vs J F Cubas  0-1322005Mercosur CupD15 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav
8. A Rodriguez Vila vs S Alonso  1-0412005Mercosur CupB33 Sicilian
9. D Mieles Palau vs P Lafuente  ½-½142005Mercosur CupB48 Sicilian, Taimanov Variation
10. Shredder vs D Valerga ½-½582005Mercosur CupC48 Four Knights
11. D Fernandez vs A Rodriguez Vila  1-0362005Mercosur CupC78 Ruy Lopez
12. S Alonso vs S Slipak  1-0472005Mercosur CupC91 Ruy Lopez, Closed
13. C Garcia Palermo vs D Mieles Palau  ½-½412005Mercosur CupD37 Queen's Gambit Declined
14. P Lafuente vs Shredder 1-0522005Mercosur CupE32 Nimzo-Indian, Classical
15. D Valerga vs E Scarella  ½-½542005Mercosur CupA75 Benoni, Classical with ...a6 and 10...Bg4
16. Shredder vs C Garcia Palermo 1-0652005Mercosur CupB06 Robatsch
17. J F Cubas vs D Valerga  ½-½402005Mercosur CupB80 Sicilian, Scheveningen
18. D Mieles Palau vs S Alonso  0-1262005Mercosur CupB32 Sicilian
19. E Scarella vs P Lafuente  ½-½262005Mercosur CupA35 English, Symmetrical
20. S Slipak vs D Fernandez  ½-½232005Mercosur CupE60 King's Indian Defense
21. A Rodriguez Vila vs S Slipak  ½-½122005Mercosur CupE11 Bogo-Indian Defense
22. P Lafuente vs J F Cubas  0-1392005Mercosur CupD10 Queen's Gambit Declined Slav
23. C Garcia Palermo vs E Scarella  1-0292005Mercosur CupA43 Old Benoni
24. D Fernandez vs D Mieles Palau  0-1462005Mercosur CupB31 Sicilian, Rossolimo Variation
25. S Alonso vs Shredder 0-1432005Mercosur CupA00 Uncommon Opening
 page 1 of 3; games 1-25 of 55  PGN Download
  REFINE SEARCH:   White wins (1-0) | Black wins (0-1) | Draws (1/2-1/2)  

Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jul-29-05  refutor: you realize that this is the first tournament *in years* to allow a computer into it, just for the reasons that dac1990 mentioned
Jul-29-05  aw1988: <Shredders one loss is hilarious. What a horrid blunder.> So THIS is how we stop the rampage of silicon into the world of the living! Mess with the hash tables!
Jul-29-05  niemzo: Actually they are not Gms and if one of them has the title it doesnt mean much since their ratings are below 2500.However, I agree that even gms wouldn't fare much better.
Jul-29-05  ConLaMismaMano: Rodriguez (2523), Garcia Palermo and Slipak are all GMs.
Jul-29-05  csmath: Yup, this is a mix of GMs and IMs. But give Shredder better computer (say dual Opteron 252 or better) and a stronger tournament and you'd probably have the same outcome. I think that Hydra would easily dominate Corus or Linares.
Jul-29-05  aw1988: Right, Hydra on 32 processors... let's see how well it does on the conventional computer.
Jul-29-05  Orbitkind: This is Shredder, not Hydra. I think that even if Hydra were running on 33554432 processors it would not be unfair because it is only making chess moves at the end of the day, and good play should be able to match it.
Jul-29-05  aw1988: Except to what extent does the human player hold up?
Jul-29-05  Orbitkind: Humans clearly get clobbered by machines. People criticise Kasparov for using anti-computer techniques, but this is absurd as the only way of beating them is using anti-computer techniques, but eventually it gets to the point where there are no longer any anti-computer techniques the human can use on the computer, and they have to play the computer at it's own formidable game. It's a bit shocking that the computer dominance in chess has come already. I think it's partly due to the low standards of chess players today though, and their laziness and familiarity with short-drawing a lot if not most games. I think someone like Kasparov can still fare well again Hydra. And even if he lost numerous games, if he just won 1 it would show the superiority of humans. This is what Kasparov pertained to once I think, and I think it's true.
Jul-29-05  Orbitkind: This is because consistency is meaningless to computers because they are perfectly consistent by definition, whereas humans can by their nature easliy miss a detail out sometimes, but in a game when they don't miss many if any details out, if they beat the computer then then it shows that humans are superior. But still, a human aided with a computer is stronger than a computer so computers aren't omni-potent. Look how Hydra was beaten by a couple of patzers who had a few chess programs running.
Jul-29-05  aw1988: I agree.
Jul-30-05  latvija: I am less than clear about Shredder, in this tournament. Is this the Shredder one can buy? Or is this some souped-up programming version of Shredder?
Jul-30-05  csmath: Believe me Shredder without "souping up" can smash a supertournament field, if used on a decent hardware, and this field on Mercosur is not a match for sure.
Jul-30-05  Anna Wrekzia: Is shredder something you can buy on line, like Fritz, and just shove it into a Dell?

If so, maybe the computers have to have their own tournaments. I don't want to see results of a human tournament skewed by a Bot that east GMs like Ms. Pacman gobbles down fruit!

Jul-30-05  mynameisrandy: Yep, you can buy it and shove it into a Dell. Also, computers do have their own tournaments. Here is a link to last year's World Computer Chess Championship (2004)
Jul-30-05  csmath: Computer Chess Championship this year in Iceland August 13-21.

Link:

http://www.ru.is/wccc05/

Aug-01-05  Knight13: < <Shredders one loss is hilarious. What a horrid blunder.> Hey. You know what? Nowdays even the 1500s are beating Shredder because Shredder's giving free pieces away with blunders! So it's no big deal beating it.
Aug-15-05  CORRUPTION: even though computers are quite good at chess.... i do still believe that man has an edge over them.... due to the fact that just by looking at a tactical position a human can look deeper into the problem easier than that of a computer
Aug-16-05  csmath: The biggest chess event is in progress in Iceland, supertournament World Championship in computer chess. This is where games are super quality ones. Current standings after 4 rounds: 1- 2. Crafty, Zappa 3.5
3- 4. Deep Junior, Shredder 3.0
5. Fruit 2.5
6- 7. Deep Sjeng, Jonny 2.0
8. The Baron 1.5
9-10. Diep, The Crazy Bishop 1.0
11-12.Fute_MT, IsiChessMMX 0.5.
Aug-16-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  BishopBerkeley: It would be delightful if Crafty (Computer) were to win! Has a "freeware" Chess engine ever won this competition? Consulting Mark Weeks' excellent list of historic World Computer Chess Champions, I'm not sure which of these are non-commercial (though clearly Shredder (Computer) , Fritz (Computer) , Junior (Computer) , and HIARCS (Computer) are not):

http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/wcc...

I note that in WBEC Ridderkerk's most recent competition ("Edition 10"), Crafty (Computer) was merely able to finish in 18th place, with Shredder (Computer) taking the top spot and Chessmaster (Computer) ("The King") taking the second spot. Pro Deo did the best among the free engines, coming in 4th place:

http://wbec-ridderkerk.nl/html/prem...

(This competition is among "UCI engines": http://www.uciengines.de/UCI_Protoc... ; many commercial programs do not qualify.)

WBEC Ridderkerk's homepage:

http://wbec-ridderkerk.nl/

WBEC Ridderkerk's Official Ratings List:

http://wbec-ridderkerk.nl/html/rati...

Nice links to downloadable UCI engines:

http://www.uciengines.de/UCI-Engine...

(: ♗ Bishop Berkeley ♗ :)

Aug-16-05  csmath: Deep Thought won in in 1989 and that was no commercial engine. And few others. Only recently retail engines were winning. This is the 13th championship. Mind here Crafty and Shredder have monstruous hardware, not like Hydra but better than anybody else, quad dual core Opteron. By the way, Crafty lost to Sjeng today and Shredder is losing to Fruit. Zappa is beating Jonny so it is in sole lead.
Aug-20-05  jmelton: Although Shredder's result is very impressive, many humans who are otherwise strong players seem to beat themselves when they play computers. Scarella, rated over 2500, blundered a piece. Search elsewhere in the Shredder database and you'll find 2600-plus rated Adianto also blundering a piece to Shredder. Fernandez and Cubas also did not exactly play impressive chess against Shredder in this tournament. Not saying I'd do better -- Shredder crushes me most of the time -- but really, how can GMs and IMs play such crappy chess?
Aug-20-05  csmath: GMs blunder regularly, that is not just a mishap, it is a part of their game. Take any elite GM and put him in a tactical position for 10 moves, the chances are he would blunder. Immaculate games are rare and sometimes more a product of luck than deep calculations.
Aug-21-05  jmelton: But how regularly and how badly? There are tactical mistakes, and then there are really, really bad blunders -- e.g., Scarella (not a GM but a strong player nonetheless) letting his bishop get trapped. I've played over I don't know how many thousands of games in the 30-odd years I've been playing chess and I can recall only a handful where a high-rated player made that egregious a blunder under tournament conditions, unless there was time trouble. Hell, I don't drop pieces in tournament games myself, and I'm just a strong Class A player.
Sep-04-05  CloudDragon: Nice tournament victory for South american GM Andreas Rodriguez!
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