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Mar-24-21
 | | AylerKupp: <<Williebob>This would appear to be the last time in chess history where two combatants are meeting for the very first time at a WCC match.> How quickly you forget Spassky - Fischer World Championship Match (1972). :-) |
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Mar-24-21
 | | beatgiant: <AylerKupp> What's wrong with Spassky vs Fischer, 1960, not memorable enough? :-) |
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Mar-24-21
 | | beatgiant: But if preliminary rounds of the FIDE knockout events count, for example there was Gurevich-Tiviakov 1999. |
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Mar-24-21
 | | beatgiant: And the last time in history (again if we include the FIDE knockouts) was maybe Radjabov-Dominguez in the 2004 event. |
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Mar-25-21
 | | AylerKupp: <Williebob>, <beatgiant> Brain fart. For some reason my mind interpreted <Williebob>'s observation that Game One of the match being Botvinnik's and Tal's first meeting as meaning that Tal had never previously beaten Botvinnik. Which, since it was their first meeting, how could he ? My brain, or at least its comprehension part, was obviously not fully engaged when I made my comment. So embarrassing! |
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Mar-25-21
 | | Williebob: <AK>, if it weren't for brain farts, my mind would run out of fuel. When I saw your comment, I got confused, then realized I was mixing up Spassky-Fischer 1972 with the never-played Fischer-Karpov 1975 match. In some alternative universe, Fischer might have avoided facing Karpov in events leading up to a '75 title defense.
Any hoo, thanks <beatgiant> for adding food for thought to my post. Match psychology in chess is a mysterious world, and I often think of these seemingly small details when considering why a great player makes the occasional amateurish-looking mistake. Nerves! Something many kibitzers simply do not take into account when posting comments like, "I just don't understand why X didn't play..." If there is a simple answer, it is nerves. Try doing your best work under a spotlight with people staring at you, cameras rolling, a whole world of chess players ready to pounce on your every mistake. |
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Mar-25-21
 | | Williebob: Oh, meant to mention to <beatgiant>: That's quite a catch with 2004's inaugural Radjabov-Dominguez matchup!
Unless the WCC structure changes to allow a similarly huge scrum of players, this could easily be the last time we see a 'virgin' pairing in a top contest. |
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Mar-25-21
 | | beatgiant: <Williebob>
Obviously there are a lot of potential objections around 2004 (legitimacy, format, absence of top players, and Radjabov-Dominguez was not the final) and Tal-Botvinnik still has the better claim, in my opinion.If we just want <in a top contest> then even the 2020/21 candidates had Wang Hao-Alekseenko. |
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Mar-25-21
 | | Williebob: <beatgiant>, I would not have expected a first-time meeting in a contemporary Candidates' event, but there you have it!
Alekseenko is also the current Candidate with the fewest games played against Carlsen, with just one draw at 2019 Isle of Man. Wang won that event without facing Alekseenko, who shared 2nd place - great results for a couple of interesting outsiders to the usual Top Ten. I liked Wang Hao's play in that event so much that I may still be rooting for him to shock the world and be the next Challenger. However, I think he looked a bit thrown off by the Covid complications at the beginning of the Candidates. There is still time for any of the Candidates to break through, of course. |
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May-23-21 | | Caissanist: The source Wikipedia article does not say that "Tal convincingly beat every notable grandmaster with his trademark aggression", but <many> notable grandmasters. Keres, Korchnoi, and Polugaevsky all had lopsided plus scores against him. |
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May-23-21 | | macer75: <Caissanist: The source Wikipedia article does not say that "Tal convincingly beat every notable grandmaster with his trademark aggression", but <many> notable grandmasters. Keres, Korchnoi, and Polugaevsky all had lopsided plus scores against him.> Seems like something doesn't add up! |
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May-24-21 | | Petrosianic: Keres scored 55% against Tal. That's not exactly lopsided. |
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May-24-21
 | | perfidious: Anyone looking for massive edges in overall career meetings between two world championship contenders is either a publicist or on a fool's errand. |
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May-24-21 | | fabelhaft: <Anyone looking for massive edges in overall career meetings between two world championship contenders> One of the most massive edges has to be the player that had +5-0=2 in career score against another after a couple of games of their title match, but it evened out a bit later. |
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May-24-21
 | | Diademas: I don't know <perfidious>.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/che... |
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May-24-21
 | | beatgiant: <perfidious>
I can quickly think of plenty of pairs of world championship contenders with massive edges in overall career meetings for one. Capablanca-Janowski, Alekhine-Marshall, Smyslov-Euwe, Korchnoi-Tal, Kasparov-Anand.... |
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May-24-21
 | | Diademas: And even worse.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/che... |
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May-24-21
 | | perfidious: <Diademas>, while certainly Lasker had his opponent's number in that set-to, hard to credit Marshall as a serious contender for the title, same as Janowski was no real threat to wrest the title from the good doctor. |
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May-24-21 | | fabelhaft: And the winner is...
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/che... |
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May-24-21
 | | Diademas: Well. If you're argument is that it will be hard to find lopsided results between two contenders of equal strength, I can't really argue against that. ;) |
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May-24-21
 | | perfidious: That is indeed my point. |
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May-24-21
 | | beatgiant: <perfidious>
If I claim a few counter-examples to your new version (e.g. Schlechter-Alekhine 100% but only two meetings, maybe Korchnoi-Tal and Rubinstein-Tarrasch are valid) I do feel like I went on a fool's errand. "It will be hard to find lopsided results between two contenders of equal strength" is almost tautological. |
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Aug-24-21
 | | GrahamClayton: As defending champion, Botvinnik only needed to draw the match, and therefore would be happy if all 24 games were drawn. Once Tal had won the first game, this equation went out the window, and as a consequence Botvinnik was now forced to play for a win, at least in some games. This meant that Tal could prepare for a slightly 'different' opponent, at least until the match returned to even terms. |
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Aug-26-22 | | ytroitsky: Tal disregarded positional principles in the return match, but in this match he was a bulldozer who colourfully blasted every opponent in his way. I especially love Tal's famous ...Nf4!! in the sixth game, and the anti-positional f4?! which won the game. |
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Aug-27-22
 | | perfidious: <ytroitsky: Tal disregarded positional principles in the return match....> And was made to pay for such transgressions by his redoubtable opponent the second time round. |
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