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Pierre Charles Fournier de Saint Amant vs Howard Staunton
Staunton - Saint Amant (1843), Paris FRA, rd 11, Dec-02
Tarrasch Defense: Symmetrical Variation (D32)  ·  1-0



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Kibitzer's Corner
Premium Chessgames Member
  The Long Diagonal: The moves 42-45 look incredible to me because these guys were supposed to be the world's strongest players in 1843. I think there has to be a mistake in writing down the moves or something, otherwise I cannot find any reasonable explanation.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: What move exactly do you object to, and what do you suggest? I guess trading rooks was suicide, but what else?

Note that 44...Kxd4 is no better than 44...Kd3: 45. g4 Ke4 46. g5 Kf5 47.Ke2 Kg5 48.Kxe3 and White wins

Jun-05-03  mrvertigo: well, 42. is forced, and if 43. ...d5xd4 44. g4, e4 45. kd1, f4 46. ke2 and if black takes the pawn white beats takes his e3 pawn and can beat him to his black pawns.

black's in a lost position because he's a tempo behind

Jun-06-03  drukenknight: okay first off, historically staunton was not really a very strong tactical player. one of the guys on chesscafe did an article on his match w/ harrwitz, and even though he won, he could make some obvious mistakes. harrtwitz just wasnt consistent, but if he was on his game staunton could be outplayed.

in this game here: 43...Ke4 looks like a blunder. What is wrong w/ simply taking the d pawn: 43...Kxd4. This is where the concept of the mating box is used. draw a 3x3 square around blacks passed pawn, that is where white K needs to stay. draw a 6x6 around whites passer that is where blacks K needs to stay.

Black will not violate the box rule if he simply takes the pawn with his K.

mrvertigo is on the right track, but he stopped pushing the e pawn. what was 45...f4??

What I appreciate staunton for is the work that he did on what became the Sicilian, it doesnt look like ours but he would start w/ e.g. e6/c5 and then get his N to c7. Very cramped, but the genisis of the sicilian you can start to see.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Sneaky: mr vertigo: <if 43. ...Kxd4 44. g4, Ke4 45. Kd1, Kf4 46. Ke2 and if black takes the pawn white beats takes his e3 pawn and can beat him to his black pawns.> That's what I saw, and probably what St. Amant saw too. But I think all three of us were wrong. Look: 43...Kxd4 44.g4 Ke4 45.Kd1 Kf3! (stepping outside of druken's "box") 46.Ke1 (g5? Kf2 ) Kxg4 47.Ke2 Kf4 and Black wins.
Jun-06-03  drukenknight: sneaky in your line not 45 Kd1 but 45 g5 putting blacks K now outside the "box." both sides will try to use their passed pawn to drive the K out of position.
Jun-06-03  mrvertigo: sorry, I meant d4, and sneaky I think you're right. DK if 45 g5 black makes it back to his pawn in time.

and don't forget staunton inspired all those cool chess sets.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: 43...Ke4 was a blunder. After 43...Kxd4 white has to play 44.Kd1 [44.g4 is bad <drukenknight> 44...Ke4 45.g5 (for 45.Kd1 see Sneaky's line.) 45...Kf5 46.Kd1 Kxg5 47.Ke2 Kf4 etc. or 46.g6 Kxg6 47.Kd1 Kf5 48.Ke2 Ke4 etc.], but then black has after 44...Kd3 45.g4 e2+ 46.Ke1 Kc2 47.g5 Kxb2 48.g6 c3 49.g7 c2 50.g8=Q c1=Q+ 51.Kxe2 Kxa3 good winning chances.
Jun-06-03  mkdir: whites 40th mover Rf3 does not look good to me...
Jun-06-03  drukenknight: 44 g4 was not my bad, it was someone elses. I make enuf bads on my own, thanks.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: <drukenknight> I know that 44.g4 was not your suggestion but you mentioned 45.g5 instead of 45.Kd1 in Sneaky's line. It doesn't improve white's situation as you can see from lines in my previous comment.:-)
Sep-10-03  jjmolina: Honza Cervenka says:
44...Kd3 45.g4 e2+ 46.Ke1 Kc2 47.g5 Kxb2 48.g6 c3 49.g7 c2 50.g8=Q c1=Q+ 51.Kxe2 Kxa3 good winning chances. But 51...Kxa3 is weak
51...Qxc4+ is game over
Premium Chessgames Member
  AgentRgent: <jjmolina> In your line 51...Qc4+ is game over as a draw: 52. Qxc4 bxc4 53. d5 c3 54. d6 c2 55. d7 c1=Q 56. d8=Q And Black can draw.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: <jjmolina> You are right. I missed that simple 51...Qc4+ trades the Queens and black will get new Queen just in time to stop white a-Pawn. Of course, the Queen ending after 51...Kxa3(?) is won for black too as white King is placed very bad.

<AgentRgent> The line we are talking about is 43...Kxd4 (instead of text 43...Ke4) 44.Kd1 Kd3 45.g4 e2+ 46.Ke1 Kc2 47.g5 Kxb2 48.g6 c3 49.g7 c2 50.g8=Q c1=Q+ 51.Kxe2 Qc4+ (instead of 51...Kxa3). There is no white d-Pawn on the board.

Mar-07-08  Knight13: 6...b6?! looks bad. The rest of the game is well played.
Feb-05-12  Knight13: What do you guys think of 37. exf5 Rxd4+ 38. Kc3 Rxe3 39. Rxe3 Rf4 40. Rxg3 Rxf5 for White?
Mar-28-14  jdc2: The version I have of this game continues to move 55: 50. Qd2 Kb1 51. Qb4+ Kc1 52. Qc3 Kb1 53. Qb3+ Kc1 54. Qa2 b4 55. Qa1# 1-0

Is that just some supposed finish that somebody tacked on later?

Mar-28-14  thomastonk: <jdc2> There are three major sources for the games of this match, and for some games these sources give different scores. This is one of them.

St.Amant's version ends with a mate in the 55th move, whereas Staunton's version ends with 50.♕d2 and "and after a few moves Black resigned" (he used capital letters). I've not checked the moves in detail, but it seems that you have found a copy of St.Amant's version, and the game in this database is a copy of Staunton's incomplete version.

Some time ago I compared all games of this match in this database with other sources, and I estimate that about 5 games here need a correction. It is obvious that Staunton-Saint Amant (1843) was made without checking the relevant sources, which is quite sad. I've submitted correction slips for similar cases (always giving exact sources), but very little had happened when I checked the games last time (one of my game collections provides some more details).

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