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Frank James Marshall vs Efim Bogoljubov
"Frankie Goes to Hollywood" (game of the day Jul-16-2016)
New York (1924), New York, NY USA, rd 18, Apr-10
Torre Attack: Classical Defense (A46)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jul-17-16  drleper: <mofishine: We have a saying from my country, the great country of Texas: If you don't know what you are talking about, its probably best to just stfu>

Haha wow that's quite an intense reaction to someone commenting on people being overly critical. Can you imagine these conversations going on in real life? "you know nothing! best you just stfu!" Yeah right, give me a break :D

By the way, in case anyone is wondering, a pun is <"the humorous use of a word in such a way as to suggest two or more meanings, or of words of similar sound with different meanings; an instance of this; a play on words">. Thanks Oxford, now the secret is out and everyone knowz ;P

Jul-17-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  jith1207: <Morfishine> Your chess knowledge is great, and I have benefited from that a lot., just like I try to take the positives mostly from others. However, there are times when you portrait yourself as a person who has not matured with his age.

I have traveled and lived in your country, I have great friends and I admire many of the aspects of the different cultures as well. I have understood the world more than you are, so I have more rights to talk like that to you. But I don't do that even if you try to induce, because a good tempered person would be able to conduct himself well even in internet hiding under anonymous identity as you do.

You don't own ChessGames, so tone down your comments to make this a better place for visitors. As <drleper> explains with dictionary in hand, it is really that simple. There is no need to get yourself twisted over something that is pure fun. I don't argue with you not to post criticism, but I understand that you are beyond the stage where you can change yourself.

We have another proverb: "If you can't practice at age 5, you are not going to at 50". Or as you need help in your language - "Old habits die hard". Well, carry on. Live in your small world, trying to bluster about your wisdom vainly in the internet.

Jul-18-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: a nice Marshall win in the famous 1924 tournament in NYC.
Jul-25-16  andrea volponi: 21...Tc8!!=
Apr-25-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

According to this: '31 Yet Other Chess Facts Most People Donít Know' (number 15)

https://thechessworld.com/articles/...

Marshall became the first American to defeat a Soviet player in an international tournament. (the game on this thread.)

I was wondering. Does that make this game Bogoljubov vs Marshall, 1924 the first time a Soviet player beat an American in an international tournament.

***

Apr-25-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <Sally Simpson> No. I'm not sure this is the first, but at least there was O Chajes vs Bogoljubov, 1923
Apr-26-19  Boomie: <First American to defeat a Russian>

This game qualifies, eh?

Marshall vs Chigorin, 1902

Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

Hi Beatgiant,

Think it refers to first player actually born in America. Chajes was born in Austria.

Hi Boomie,

Who ever came up with this is using the term 'Soviet'. The Soviet Union came into being in 1922. But I'd say yours is just as good.

It is rather a silly stat, I was only interested in it because Bogoljubov beat Marshall so was he the first in reverse.

***

Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: Steinitz - Chigorin World Championship Match (1889)
Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <Sally Simpson> I agree with you that "Soviet" indicates games played during the existence of the Soviet Union.

However, if you are requiring that the "American" must have been born in the US, then you would also need to require that the "Soviet" must have been born in the Soviet Union. Bogoljubov was not; he was born a long time before the Soviet Union existed.

Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <Sally Simpson> If we are looking for the first time a person born in the USSR beat a person born in the US, it might have been Bronstein vs Santasiere, 1945.
Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <Sally Simpson> And if we are looking for the first time a person born in the US beat a person born in the USSR, I can't think of any before the 1960's (maybe Fischer vs Geller, 1961)
Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

Hi Beatgiant,

It does indeed look like who ever found this 'Yet Other Chess Facts Most People Donít Know.' has not thought it through.

I'd go along with that, they need a player born after 1922 for them to be classed as a Soviet player. (Soviet Union offically started on 30th Dec. 1922)

An American, born when America was called America, beating a Soviet player born when the Soviet Union was called the Soviet Union.

Now the fun starts.

I can beat Fischer - Geller with Spassky vs Lombardy, 1960 and staying with Lombardy. V Selimanov vs Lombardy, 1957.

***

Apr-26-19  Boomie: <first time a person born in the US beat a person born in the USSR>

Fine comes to mind. He was beating Russians in the 1930's. At Margate, he beat Alekhine and Menchik, for example.

Margate (1937)

Apr-26-19  john barleycorn: <Boomie: <first time a person born in the US beat a person born in the USSR>

Fine comes to mind. ...>

Pillsbury, for sure did. Whether he was the first, that I don't know.

Apr-26-19  john barleycorn: however, <Boomie> boomboom was misrepresenting <Sally Simpson>'s point:

<Sally Simpson: ***
...

An American, born when America was called America, beating a Soviet player born when the Soviet Union was called the Soviet Union. ...>

Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

Hi Boomie,

The site in question:

https://thechessworld.com/articles/...

Say: 'Soviet Player' we are looking for a Soviet player born after 1922. Averbakh was born in 1922 but in February. The USSR 'born' December 1922.

Hopefully nobody will fall for trap I nearly fell into when I was just about to poke about in Reshevsky's past when I remembered he was not born in America.

When we have finally found the game some hapless individual without a wife, girlfriend, hobby or a purpose in life will find the last Soviet born player to lose to a born American.

(but, thankfully, not yet...there are still a bunch of Soviet born chess players still knocking about.)

***

Apr-26-19  Boomie: <Hopefully nobody will fall for trap>

Well, I did hook, line, and sinker. After 1922...go figure.

Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: To summarize:

The current game (Marshall vs Bogoljubov, 1924) is the first time a US citizen beat a USSR citizen (both nationalities as of the time the game was played).

The game O Chajes vs Bogoljubov, 1923 is a candidate for the first time a USSR citizen beat a US citizen (both nationalities as of the time the game was played).

The game Bronstein vs Santasiere, 1945 is a candidate for the first time a person born in the USSR during its existence beat a person born in the US.

The game V Selimanov vs Lombardy, 1957 is a candidate for the first time a person born in the US beat a person born in the USSR during its existence.

Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: Earlier example for US-born beating USSR-born: Taimanov vs Larry Evans, 1954
Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: Early example for US citizen beating Russian subject: Steinitz vs Chigorin, 1889

Early example for US-born player beating Russian Empire-born player: Showalter vs Chigorin, 1896

I hardly spent any time looking for those, so I won't be surprised if other kibitzers post earlier ones.

Apr-26-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: Early example of Russian subject (I think) beating US citizen: Loyd vs Winawer, 1867. Both were born in their respective country/empire of citizenship/subjecthood.
Apr-27-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

Good Work Beatgiant, especially with the Evans game.

Think together we have added more details to their 'Other Chess Facts Most People Donít Know.' section.

Also beneficial knowledge wise. Did not know that the USSR and the United Kingdom both officially came into being in 1922.

***

Apr-27-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <Sally Simpson> <Did not know that the USSR and the United Kingdom both officially came into being in 1922.>

You're the Brit, but what I learned in school was 1707 was the year of the Acts of Union creating the UK, and 1922 was when Irish Free State dropped out of it.

Of course, this is crucial knowledge in case you want to find "the first time a British player beat a Soviet player" (maybe Alekhine vs Yates, 1923) but I'll leave it for you to define all the conditions, find the games and figure out which is the best page on which to post your list... which sounds like lots of work ;-)

Apr-27-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: ***

Hi beatgiant,

No United Kingdown until Ireland joined in 1801 (before then it was just Great Britain (Great as in the size) then when part of Ireland dropped out in 1922 it is the United Kingdowm we now have now.

https://www.historic-uk.com/History...

The Alternative U.K. as opposed to 'Anarchy in the UK.'

If/When Scotland split it will no longer exist.

Think the conditions for a Soviet player should be born after 1922.

All this started because I just curious if the coincidence was Efim Bogoljubov being the first Soviet (by the old conditions) to beat an American and it was Frank Marshall.

***

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