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Paul Keres vs Mikhail Botvinnik
FIDE World Championship Tournament (1948), Hague NLD/Moscow RUS, rd 15, Apr-20
French Defense: Tarrasch Variation. Open System (C07)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 7 OF 8 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-17-07  laskereshevsky: <depressing...>

in part you are right... but, focus on the fact, in this challenge the opponents dsent see each other....

so, what you suggest?!.... i meant a "positive"
and "costrutive" suggestion....of course

Mar-17-07  Plato: <slomarko> Unfortunately it happens all the time. Even GMs have been caught using computer-asssistance on the ICC. I wouldn't put it past <RookFile>, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't put it past me. As we agreed from the outset, Advanced Chess (i.e., computer + human) is the best possible format we have available to us -- but there can be no question that Advanced Chess is a legitimate test of skill.
Mar-17-07  slomarko: "positive" and "costrutive" suggestion?
lets see hmm they could play Capablanca chess.
Mar-17-07  laskereshevsky: i wrote <in part you are right> cause i too think the "real" chess is without computer....

but acting like the ostrichs is not a smart thing....

Mar-17-07  laskereshevsky: <they could play Capablanca chess.>

with or without software's support?!.........

Mar-17-07  slomarko: i dont think there are engines for that
Mar-17-07  laskereshevsky: Ok, but if there are?
Mar-17-07  laskereshevsky: see the point?!...
Mar-17-07  slomarko: <Ok, but if there are?> i suggested that precisely because there arent any engines.
Mar-17-07  Plato: <slomarko> At least in Advanced Chess the pieces and rules of the game are the same. By the way, I'm pretty sure that there are some engines available that can play Capablanca chess... if so, the problem wouldn't be avoided.

I think, all things considered, Advanced Chess is a much truer test of chess skill.

Mar-17-07  laskereshevsky: <i dont think there are engines for that>

<i suggested that precisely because there arent any engines>

.. .......

Mar-17-07  slomarko: <I think, all things considered, Advanced Chess is a much truer test of chess skill.> In my opinion thats exactly what a Advanced chess is not. a test of chess skill.
Mar-17-07  Plato: <slomarko> If you don't think chess skill is involved, then you don't know much about it. Read the Wikipedia entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanc..., for example.

I hope it goes without saying, but my comment was that Advanced Chess is a truer test of chess skill than Capablanca chess (not regular chess!) because:

1) Unlike Capablanca Chess, the rules of Advanced Chess are the same as regular chess, and

2) Computer engines already exist for Capablanca Chess, so your suggestion wouldn't help in that regard.

Since OTB chess in person is not an option, Advanced Chess is by far the best alternative.

Mar-17-07  slomarko: <Plato> thats very debatable, in an advanced chess match it happened more than once that a weaker chess player defeated the stronger one.
Mar-17-07  Plato: <slomarko: in an advanced chess match it happened more than once that a weaker chess player defeated the stronger one.>

Forgive me, I had forgotten that this never happened more than once in regular chess. Or did it? If it did, I guess it's also very debatable that any chess skill is required in regular chess, too.

<slomarko: thats very debatable>

If you mean that it's debatable whether or not chess skill is involved in Advanced Chess -- you're wrong, it's not debatable. Well, you can "debate" it all you want, but it would be very easy to refute such a claim.

Mar-17-07  slomarko: <Forgive me, I had forgotten that this never happened more than once in regular chess.> What i mean is that i've seen GMs beaten by 2100 rated players. in normal chess that is very very rare. <If you mean that it's debatable whether or not chess skill is involved in Advanced Chess -- you're wrong, it's not debatable.> Oh there is certainly some skill involved i only contest the fact that it is the same skill that is needed in the normal chess.

Mar-17-07  Plato: <i only contest the fact that it is the same skill that is needed in the normal chess.>

Yes, you'll hear no disagreement from me there. Regular chess is clearly a much better indication of chess skill, hands down. Unfortunately, it is not an option here because if computer assistance was disallowed, both of us would suspect the other of cheating.

My main objection is to your calling this match "a farce," because I do think that a sufficient amount of chess skill is involved for the match to be taken seriously. As for the GMs who have lost to much weaker players in advanced chess, I believe those games were played under fast time controls (especially for advanced chess!). In a correspondence game of Advanced Chess, like we have here, I don't think something like that would happen much more than it does in regular chess.

Mar-17-07  slomarko: Ok, then the two of you have my blessing ;)
Mar-18-07  Plato: The <Plato vs RookFile> grudge match has officially begun. Those interested can follow on the Ziggurat chessforum, but no suggestions to either side until after the games are over, please!
May-01-09  Eyal: From Dennis Monokroussos' blog:

<The game I'm referring to is the game Keres-Botvinnik, from the third cycle of the 1948 World Championship match-tournament. There's good reason to think that Keres was pressured not to out-do Botvinnik in the event (see http://www.chesscafe.com/text/skitt... for a good survey of the documentary evidence), and some (not me) think it went to the point that Keres actually threw his first four games against Botvinnik, only winning the last one when it no longer mattered. (In fact, some go on to say that Botvinnik threw the last one, to make sure Reshevsky wouldn't finish ahead of Keres!)

As part of the case for the "Keres threw the games" conclusion, they point to particular positions where Keres' play seemed especially suspect, and the game in question offers a favorite example. Rather than make the whole case here, however, I refer you to my new video: http://www.chessvideos.tv/forum/vie.... You'll find all the elaboration you could want there, along with some amusing stories, plenty of analysis - and plenty of analytical errors, including some embarrassing ones by those who think the fix is in.

So have a look - it's free, available on-demand for the next month, and requires no special software - and decide for yourself. My judgment: while I think it's likely that Keres felt some general pressure, I doubt that it came anywhere near the point where he was told or felt compelled to throw the games. I say that the fix is out.>

Oct-23-10
Premium Chessgames Member
  Fusilli: Wow... I don't like those endless debates about the USSR players fixing games, but if there is a suspicion of Keres throwing this game, I am inclined to agree.

Towards the end, 66.Kg4 seems the only decent move, and then 67.Kh2... what's that about?

Keres was probably lost by then, anyway, but it's hard to believe that the endgame as it was around move 45 ended up the way it did...

Feb-07-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: <Fusilli: Wow... I don't like those endless debates about the USSR players fixing games, but if there is a suspicion of Keres throwing this game, I am inclined to agree.

Towards the end, 66.Kg4 seems the only decent move, and then 67.Kh2... what's that about?

Keres was probably lost by then, anyway, but it's hard to believe that the endgame as it was around move 45 ended up the way it did...>

Well, 66.Kg4 Rxa4 67.Kxg5 Rd4 or Rc4 is elementary win for black. It is true that instead of 67.Kh2 white could play 67.Kf3 preventing immediate capture of Pa4 but he can't keep it much longer, for example 67...Kc3 68.Re5 g4+ 69.Kg3 Rxa4 and black wins. That the ending was far more tricky and Keres' allegedly glaring blunders far more subtle kind of mistakes or even not mistakes at all, it seems to be quite well established point in earlier discussion here.

Feb-25-14
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <Resignation Trap> kindly posted Kmoch's annotations of this game. Apparently Kmoch thought the ending was lost. After move 41:


click for larger view

<Black's advantage is decisive. The process of winning may take time, but White can do little to avoid final defeat; he has no chances for active counterplay.">

But as we also know the kibitzing here (and also from Smyslov and Levenfish), Keres missed draws later on. The analysis is posted on these pages. What I am curious about is, did Botvinnik blow the win? Or was Kmoch wrong at move 41? Does anyone know?

May-22-15  A.T PhoneHome: For losing this game, Paul Keres got a new car, luxurious penthouse and crocodile skin shoes.
May-22-15  Howard: Oh, yes, of the four games that Keres lost to Botvinnik, this one was by far the most "suspicious" one, as far as the possibility it may have been thrown.

ATPhoneHome's comment may be exaggerated, though.

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