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| Jan-09-14 | | SChesshevsky: <AylerKupp: Still, I find it difficult to believe that Petrosian didn't think that Fischer was a "street-smart opponent", even back in 1961...> This one has always puzzled me. It certainly doesn't look like Black's better at the draw offer so I can see why he offered and why White wouldn't accept at that point. But I could never figure out why Petrosian would then attempt complications from there. Fischer seems to imply that he psyched the Russians out. While possible, it may not be likely as complications from a position of weakness is not Petrosian's style especially if drawing is acceptable. I also don't think they would have underestimated Fischer by 61. Did Petrosian just forget to pick-off the Knight before ...Rd6? It would've been interesting to get his side of the story. |
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| Jan-10-14 | | RookFile: It's strange. I think most people would prefer black's position after 27....Nxe4. A draw would be a very likely outcome. |
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| Jan-10-14 | | SChesshevsky: It looks like after 27...Nxe4 28. Rxe4 White gets to protect the passed pawn and probably double rooks on the d-file. Though as the saying goes "all rook endings are draws" Black has to make sure White can't exchange a rook with advantage or exchange both rooks. All while guarding against dropping a Qside pawn after White invades especially as there's no way the Black K can get over there without exchanging rooks. I've always figured Petrosian may have just flubbed by touching the Rook forgetting he didn't already take off the B or he thought he was worse off than Fischer implies. The MSMG's explanation that Petrosian missed 28. Bxa8 didn't seem very convincing. |
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Jan-10-14
 | | perfidious: <SChessevsky......I've always figured Petrosian may have just flubbed by touching the Rook forgetting he didn't already take off the B or he thought he was worse off than Fischer implies. The MSMG's explanation that Petrosian missed 28. Bxa8 didn't seem very convincing.> It is possible for even top-class players to misjudge a position in the heat of battle; they are, after all, merely human beings, same as we ordinary woodpushers. |
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| Jan-10-14 | | Travis Bickle: Simply Bobby! |
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| Jan-10-14 | | RandomVisitor: Final look at improvement attempts after 31.Kb3: <Rybka4.1> a) 31...Nd7 [+0.43] d=28 32.Rb5 Kd6 33.Rxb4 f5 34.a4 e5 35.a5 e4 36.Kc3 Rf3+ 37.Kd2 Nc5 38.a6 Rf2+ 39.Ke3 Rf3+ 40.Ke2 Nxa6 41.Rb6+ Kc5 42.Rxa6 Rxg3 43.Ra5+ Kxc4 44.h4 Rg2+ 45.Ke3 Rxb2 46.Rxf5 g6 47.Rf6 b) 31...Kd6 [+0.69] d=28 32.c5+ Kc7 33.a4 bxa3 34.Kxa3 Rd2 35.b4 Nd7 36.Be4 Rd4 37.Ra7+ Kb8 38.Ra8+ Kc7 39.Bc2 h5 40.Ba4 Rd3+ 41.Kb2 Ne5 42.Bb5 Rxg3 43.Ra7+ Kb8 44.Re7 Rg2+ 45.Kb3 Rg1 46.Ba6 Rb1+ 47.Kc3 |
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| Jan-11-14 | | RandomVisitor: <erniecohen><As far as I can tell, 33...Kc7 (which Fischer doesn't mention in his book) seems like a draw. For example, 34. Rxb4 Nd7 35. Rb7+ Kc8 36. Rb5 Rxh3+ 37. a4 Rxg3+ 38. b4 Nxc5 39. Rxc5+ Kb8 40. Bc6 Rxb4. Anyone claim a win for White?>Well ErnieCohen, let's take a look: 
click for larger viewRybka 4.1 x64:
<[+1.44] d=27 34.Rxb4 Nd7 35.Rb5> Rxh3 36.a4 Rxg3+ 37.Kc2 Rg4 38.b3 e5 39.Rb7+ Kc8 40.c6 Nc5 41.Rxf7 Kb8 42.Rf8+ Kc7 43.a5 Ne6 44.Rf7+ Kb8 45.Bb7 Rg3 46.b4 Nd4+ 47.Kd2 Rb3 48.Rf8+ Kc7 49.Rc8+ |
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Jan-11-14
 | | offramp: < perfidious: <AylerKupp.....maybe Petrosian and Tal were practicing their signals for Curacao 1962.> Maybe they already knew where the true danger lay.....> Whatever their opinion before the start of Curaçao 1962, it would have changed after the first 2 rounds; Fischer still had 0 after 2 rounds. |
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| Jan-22-14 | | MarkFinan: <AylerKupp: <<SeanAzarin> Fischer on the game: "Right after I made [my 27th move] Petrosian offered a draw.>
How can that be? The rules of chess do no allow a player to offer a draw until after the player has made a move. So Petrosian could not legally offer a draw after Fisher's 27th move or, for that matter, after any of Fischer's moves, without first playing a move of his own. I'm assuming that both Fischer and Petrosian were familiar with the rules of chess.> Well obviously I can't speak for players of that calibre but I remember once a guy just kinda raising his eyebrows and offering his hand but I knew what he meant. Not sure who's turn it was like, but that stuck with me because it was the first game I played at a tournament that was out of my age group, like an open tournament or something. I think I'm going buy a book on Fischer, not about his games of chess, more a bio of some kind. Either him or Tal anyways. ✌ |
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| Feb-17-14 | | SpiritedReposte: I read in one book or another if you are in a rated tourney and someone offers a draw when they are to move you should... a) sit there and see how much time they let drain from their clock lol or b) if you are nicer say "make your move and I will consider it" either way you have a draw in hand even if he finds some unforseen winning move! Not really good to offer draws when you are on the move. |
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| Feb-17-14 | | Sally Simpson: Hi,
"Yet I am still puzzled why the experienced Petrosian would have offered a draw out of turn." "It may have been a psychological ploy by the Armenian grandmaster." Possibly true or maybe Petrosian's mind went back to 1958 when after playing 67.f7. 
click for larger viewFischer offered a draw out of turn to Petrosian not realising it was "bad etiquette." Game 3 M60MG.
Petrosian vs Fischer, 1958 |
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| Feb-19-14 | | SpiritedReposte: I can see offering a draw when its your move in a completely, absolutely dead drawn position. But that assessment will differ from person to person. |
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| Feb-19-14 | | Granny O Doul: I've seen Kasparov offer draws "out of turn", in the strict sense, a couple of times. Once he was on the verge of creating K vs. K and the other was comparably trivial. Still, if one likes protest for its own sake, they were opportunities. |
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| Feb-19-14 | | morfishine: <perfidious> I agree with this comment: <It may have been a psychological ploy by the Armenian grandmaster> Less likely is that Petrosian miscalculated the position as a dead draw |
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| May-07-15 | | Zugzwangovich: If Black had not resigned I wonder which mate (Ra7, Re7, Rf7), if any, would be the most "chessic?" I'd probably be a wise guy and play Rf7 but I'm sure there are those who would consider that rather cheeky. |
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| Jan-08-16 | | Joker2048: Surely Bobby Fischer will rejected the offer of drawing,
He hates draws.
And the most of his loses because of that,
Lol... |
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Apr-21-16
 | | Phony Benoni: Regarding the kibitz by <sneaky pete> back on Nov-06-12: ---
"<sneaky pete>: White could have played 22.Qxg7 .. and if 22... Ke7 23.dxc5 Qc6 24.Bg6 Rdf8 Igor Arkadievich Zaitsev suggested (around 1972) 25.Rhe1 .. 
click for larger viewwhen after 25... Rhg8 26.Rd6 Rxg7 (26... Qc8 27.Rexe6+ Qxe6 28.Rxe6+ Kxe6 29.Bf5+ .. winning) 27.Rxc6 Rxg6 28.Rc7+ .. 
click for larger viewblack is in big trouble."
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Predating Zaitsev, this line appeared as a note in Al Horowitz's <Solitair Chess> feature (Chess Life & Review, November 1969, p. 468). |
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| Oct-19-17 | | ewan14: Petrosian and Tal perfected ( their ) drawing signals at the 1959 Candidates
tournament |
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Jan-13-18
 | | SpaceRunner: According to Jens Enevoldesen was Tal standing close to the board rather unpatiently watimg for the draw.
Did Fischer accept the drawoffer then Tal in reality would have won the tournament before the last round. Therefore Fischer declined the draw offer!.
"Bobby Fischers vej til VM" Bramsen % Hjort ,1972 Jan-09-14 SChesshevsky: <AylerKupp: Still, I find it difficult to believe that Petrosian didn't think that Fischer was a "street-smart opponent", even back in 1961...>
This one has always puzzled me. It certainly doesn't look like Black's better at the draw offer so I can see why he offered and why White wouldn't accept at that point. But I could never figure out why Petrosian would then attempt complications from there. Fischer seems to imply that he psyched the Russians out. While possible, it may not be likely as complications from a position of weakness is not Petrosian's style especially if drawing is acceptable. I also don't think they would have underestimated Fischer by 61. Did Petrosian just forget to pick-off the Knight before ...Rd6? It would've been interesting to get his side of the story. |
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| Feb-06-18 | | zborris8: 36.Kc4 I wonder how many casual players would find that in a mate in three puzzle? |
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Dec-17-18
 | | sea7kenp: Yes, <Petrosianic>, Fisher annotated (in 60 Memorable Games), that "Simply 27 ... NxB [Nxe4 in Algebraic] leads to a dead draw". |
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Dec-17-18
| | sea7kenp: Note to self: Read ALL Pages of Kibitzing, before Replying. Oh well! |
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Jul-31-19
 | | gezafan: Yet another R+B vs R+N game by Fischer. He was a specialist in this and played such positions extremely well. |
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| Feb-09-20 | | RandomVisitor: After 31.Kb3, apparently 31...Nd7 keeps black even in a difficult position... the "fish" cannot find a win for Fischer...
click for larger viewStockfish_20012509_x64_modern: <TB6> <60/56 1:17:32 0.00 31...Nd7 32.Bc6 Kd6 33.Bxd7> Kxd7 34.a4 bxa3 35.Kxa3 Rc2 36.Kb3 Rg2 37.Ra7+ Kd6 38.Rxf7 Rxg3+ 39.Kb4 g5 40.c5+ Kc6 41.Ra7 Rxh3 42.Ra6+ Kb7 43.Rxe6 h5 44.Kc4 g4 45.Rg6 Rf3 46.b4 Rf7 47.b5 h4 48.b6 h3 49.Kb5 Rf5 50.Rg7+ Kb8 51.Rh7 Rg5 52.Kc6 Rg8 53.Rb7+ Ka8 54.Ra7+ Kb8 |
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| Feb-09-20 | | RandomVisitor: Here are 3 tries to win after 31...Nd7 that do not work...
click for larger viewStockfish_20012509_x64_modern:
<67/72 10:16:38 0.00 32.Bc6 Kd6 33.Bxd7> Kxd7 34.Kxb4 Rxb2+ 35.Kc5 Rd2 36.Ra7+ Ke8 37.a4 e5 38.Rb7 e4 39.Rb3 Rd3 40.Kb4 Rf3 41.a5 Kd7 42.a6 Kc7 43.Rb2 Rxg3 44.Ra2 Kb8 45.c5 Rg1 46.a7+ Ka8 47.c6 Rc1 48.Kb5 Rc3 49.h4 e3 50.Kb6 f5 51.c7 f4 52.Ra5 e2 53.Rf5 Rb3+ 54.Kc6 Rc3+ 55.Kb6 67/68 10:16:38 0.00 32.Rb5 f5 33.Rxb4 e5 34.Kc3 e4 35.Rb5 Rf3+ 36.Kd2 Kd6 37.b4 Ne5 38.c5+ Ke6 39.Rb8 Rxg3 40.Re8+ Kf6 41.b5 Nc4+ 42.Ke2 Re3+ 43.Kf2 Rf3+ 44.Kg1 Ne3 45.Rf8+ Ke7 46.Rb8 g5 47.b6 Rf1+ 48.Kh2 Rf2+ 49.Kh1 Rf1+ 67/43 10:16:38 0.00 32.c5 Ne5 33.c6 f6 34.Rb5 Kd6 35.Rxb4 Rf3+ 36.Kc2 Rf2+ |
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