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David Norwood vs Boris Gelfand
EU-ch U20 (1987), Arnhem NED, rd 8, Dec-27
English Opening: Symmetrical. Symmetrical Variation (A36)  ·  0-1



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: I missed 38...Re8 and the ...Re3 threat in the ♕sac line. :(
Premium Chessgames Member
  Arbiter58: 35.Qd8+ Rxd8 36.Rxd8 Bf8 37.Rxf8 Kg7 38.Re8 seems a strong solution to me.

I prefer however 37.g5 Kg7 38.Bc5 because it forces mate. 38... Bxc5 doesn't work because of 39.Rg8++ and I cant see a defense against Bxf8 followed by Bh6. E.g. 38... Nc6 39.Bxf8 Kh8 40.Re8 and mate in a few.

Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: For today's difficult Saturday puzzle solution, we have the winning move 35. Qd8+!, which initiates a deep mating attack that a 2500+ rated player missed in the actual game.

The winning line 35.Qd8+!! Rxd8 36.Rxd8+ Bf8 37.Rxf8+ Kg7 38.Re8! is given by <Random Visitor> and is further explained and illustrated in <Once>'s post.

The key to the combination is the not so quiet intermezzo or zwischenzung (sort of an unexpected in-between move) 38. Re8!, threatening both 38...Qxf6?? 39. Bd4# and 39. g5 followed by 40. Rg8#.

Had White followed this line, Black would have been forced to give up decisive material to avoid the mate after 35.Qd8+!! Rxd8 36.Rxd8+ Bf8 37.Rxf8+ Kg7 38.Re8! .

Here's a computer-checked breakout of some of the possibilities:

35.Qd8+!! Rxd8 36.Rxd8+ Bf8 37.Rxf8+ Kg7 38.Re8! (diagram below)

click for larger view

If 38...Kxf6??, then it's 39. Bd4#

If 38...h6, then 39. g5! hxg5 40. fxg5 Nf3+ 41. Bxf3 Qh8 42. Rxh8 leaves White with an overwhelming material advantage.

If 38...g5, then 39. fxg5 with the threat of 40. Rg8# forces White to give up decisive material to slow down the coming mate (e.g. 38...g5 39. fxg5 Qxg4 40. Nxg4 ) or to succumb quickly after possibilities like 38...g5 39. fxg5 Kg6 40. Rg8# (as noted by <TheBish>).

If 38...Nd5 39. Bxd5 h6 40. Re3! traps and wins the Black Queen with decisive advantage.

If 38...Qc3, then 39. g5! Qc1+ 40. Be1 Qc5+ Kh2! again forces Black to surrender decisive material to avoid mate.

If 38...Nf5, then 39. g5! Ne7 40. Rxe7 Qc8 41. Re8 produces a winning double attack that forces the surrender of the Black Queen.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <Arbiter58>

Here's the position after 37. g5 Kg7 38. Bc5?

click for larger view

Now you are quite right that mate is forced, but unfortunately, it's white who gets mated not black! 38...Bxc5+ does work (for black) because it comes with check and white does not have time for 39. Rg8#. Then all that is left is 39. Rd4 Bxd4#

Feb-21-09  ething: Doesn't the cute 38. Re8 ? thing lead to an obvious loss after 38... Nf3+ 39. Bxf3 Qxf3 ?? It seems like after Qxf3, White's clever mating strategy has fallen down the tubes... There are now many opportunities for checks and the queen can march around the board picking off vulnerable and precariously positioned white pieces. I don't think black can do any worse than a draw after 39...Qxf3.

I think the best continuation is 35. Qe7 Nd3 36. Rxd3! Qxd3 (36... Rd1+ 37. Be1 and black has all sorts of things to worry about, including threatened mate and a hanging queen) 37. Bxh4 and white (though there is a slightly vulnerable king) has fine compensation in the form of a bishop pair for a lost rook.

Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: Saturday (Very Difficult)

D Norwood vs Gelfand, 1988 (35.?)

White to play and win.

Material: Down B for N+P. The Black Kh8 is stalemated. The White Nf6 suggests an Arabian mate. White has a battery Rd1 and Qd6 able to invade the 8-th rank, so investigation of the candidate 35.Qd8+ is mandatory. The White Kg1 is vulnerable to the Black Nf4 and Qh3, but is protected by Bf2 and Bh1, at least momentarily.

Candidates (35.): Qd8+

35.Qd8+ Rxd8 [else, drop Rc8] 36.Rxd8+ Bf8 37.Rxf8+ Kg7

38.Re8 (threatening 39.g5 40.Rg8#)

38...g5 [Kxf6 39.Bd4#] 39.fxg5 (threatening 40.Rg8#)

There is no feasible defense. Throughout, Black can stop mate with ...Qxg4+, but then is down R for P.

Thanks for the great kibitzing, <dzechiel> and <patzer2>. I was wondering what was wrong with my variations, until I read your kibitzes.

Feb-21-09  ething: I guess I missed after 39... Qxf3 40. g5!!!!!!! leads to a forced mate.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <ething: Doesn't the cute 38. Re8 ? thing lead to an obvious loss after 38... Nf3+ 39. Bxf3 Qxf3 ??>

38. Re8 Nf3+ 39. Bxf3 Qxf3 40. g5 Qd1+ 41. Kh2

click for larger view

No more meaningful queen checks and the mate on g8 is unavoidable. Fritzie says mate in 4.

Feb-21-09  WhiteRook48: why did white blunder into a loss?
Feb-21-09  TheChessGuy: <WhiteRook48: why did white blunder into a loss?> Why do people blunder? Time pressure? Miscalculation? These happen to the best of us.
Feb-21-09  zenpharaohs: OK I liked:

35 Qd8+ Rxd8
36 Rxd8+ Bf8
37 Rxf8+ Kg7
38 Re8

and then I couldn't figure out what to expect from Black, other than Black's King is stalemated, which I thought was nice. White is threatening g5 and then Rg8# so I felt pretty good. There is also a threat against the Queen with Re3. But I don't know what Black does.

Now I check with Rybka:

38 ... Nd5
39 Bxd5 h6

OK that defuses the attack on the King so it's time for Re3, what does Rybka say Black continues?

40 Re3 Qxe3
41 Bxe3 Kxf6

click for larger view

I'll take White in that position any day.

So I got the first few moves, and saw the theme, but didn't get the whole solution, but I'll take it.

Feb-21-09  cracknik: What the hell? is says white to play and black wins?
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <cracknik> Yup, that's right. The puzzle is white to play and win. When the game was played, the player with the white pieces, David Norwood, didn't find the winning combination. The task today was to find the win that he missed.

If you read the kibitzing from page 1 onwards it should all become clear.

Feb-21-09  JG27Pyth: I saw this so very quickly (which isn't like me at all, and certainly not on Saturday), but without Re8... I had g5... darn. Nice puzzle.
Feb-21-09  Marmot PFL: These quiet moves like 38.Re8 are always the hardest to see, and two GMs missed it.
Feb-21-09  TheBish: <pr4: Good analysis, TheBish. What follows after...

E) 38...Qc3 39. g5 Qc1+>

Good point, pr4! I didn't consider that in my late night (early a.m.) analysis.

Going back to my earlier posting,

E) 38...Qc3 39. g5 (also winning is 39. Bxh4, when Black can choose between 39...Qc5+ 40. Kh2 Qf8 (or 40...Qc2+ 41. Bg2 and the "useful" checks have run out) 41. Rxf8 Kxf8, leaving White two extra bishops, or 39...Qc1+ 40. Kg2! Qd2+ (or 40...Qc6+ 41. Kg3, when Black will have to play 41...Qxe8 42. Nxe8+, leaving White up two bishops again) 41. Kg3 Qc3+ 42. Bf3, when Black will now have to play 42...Qxf6 43. Bxf6+ Kxf6, leaving White a whole rook up)

and now (after 38...Qc3 39. g5)

39...Qc1+ 40. Be1! (not 40. Kh2? Qxf4+ 41. Bg3 Qxg5, undermining the knight's protection) Qc5+ 41. Kh2 Qc2+ 42. Kh3 Qf5+ 43. Kg3! (much better than 43. Kxh4 Qxf4+ 44. Ng4, although White is probably still winning) Qd3+ 44. Kxh4, and Black has only one more spite check (Qg3+ or Qh3+) before being mated.

The bottom line is, Black's checks eventually run out, and White wins in all lines.

Premium Chessgames Member
  johnlspouge: < <zenpharoahs> wrote: [snip] Now I check with Rybka:

38 ... Nd5
39 Bxd5 h6

OK that defuses the attack on the King so it's time for Re3 >

In fact, the reasoning behind moving 40.Re3 rather than 40.g5 is rather subtle, but it is not because the attack on the Black Kg7 is defused:

40.g5 hxg5 41.fxg5 (threatening 42.Rg8#)

41...Nf3+ 42.Bxf3 Qg2+ 43.Kxg2


Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: I got the first 3 moves
Feb-21-09  jpcsacristan: why is this white to move, but black is the winner?? sorry for the foolishness.. new kibitzer
Feb-22-09  avidfan: <Once>'s pretty mating position is termed a <pure mate>. Each flight square is controlled by only <one> White piece or is blocked by a Black piece.

After the 35.Qd8+ sequence, it is necessary to 'see' beforehand the key winning move 38.Re8! especially if under time pressure. No wonder the junior Norwood missed it.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <jpcsacristan: why is this white to move, but black is the winner?? sorry for the foolishness.. new kibitzer>

Don't worry about asking questions here. We are always happy to help!

This puzzle is indeed "white to play". We need to find the best continuation for white. That does not always mean "white to play and win". Sometimes we are looking for a drawing move in a losing position.

Often (but not always), the best continuation is the one that was played in the game. But sometimes our task is to find a win (or draw) that the real players missed. In this case, white throws away a forced win because he does not find the correct line after 35. Qd8+.

I generally find that the best way to understand these positions is to read the kibitzing rather than the game score.

Feb-22-09  TheaN: Ah... damn. Got close, but as many others I tripped on 38.Re8!! and forgot the line altogether. Never got anything else, though... up to Monday.
Feb-24-09  andrewleef1: Why is the ending position won for black?
Mar-04-09  YouRang: <andrewleef1: Why is the ending position won for black?>

click for larger view

What can white (in check) do?

If 42.Kf2, then 42...Qxh1 (or 42...Qxf4+ & 43...Qxh4). Black's material advantage plus the fact that white's king is wide open to checks (while black's is well guarded) means that the Q will dominate.

If 42.Kg2 (or Kh2), then 42.Qc2+ with Qxd3 next. This is like the situation that white had above, except worse. :-)

Premium Chessgames Member
  Sally Simpson: Boris Gelfand talking about this game.

" In London recently I met David Norwood. The last time I saw him, terrible as it is to say, was in 1987, at the European Championship.

I beat him back then in the decisive game and became champion. Then so many years later we met again.

He was very glad to see me, and said: “Thank you for making a man of me.

Back then you made it clear to me that it wasn’t worth my playing chess professionally. I quit chess for business and now I’ve got a lucrative and thriving business”.

Boris suggests in the same article he is slightly responsible for Carlsen staying with chess.

"....the current World Champion Magnus Carlsen.

When he was 16 his dad Henrik asked me if he should continue playing or whether it was better to go to university and study.

Of course I saw that Magnus had huge talent, but would he become a champion? I replied at the time that if Magnus enjoys chess then he should definitely continue.

Well, just look what I went and did! "

Good article/interview.

on Computers:

"You press a button and you get information that at times we spent years accumulating.

My trainer and I do, of course, also turn to the computer, but only to check which move it recommends in a concrete situation.

Otherwise the computer can completely suppress your human creativity."

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