< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Apr-14-06|| ||al wazir: Why not play 37. Kf2, followed by Rh1 (and Kg3 if black plays Qf8)? How can black defend? If 37...Qa8 then 38. Rh1 Qa3 39. Qxg6 Qb2+ 40. Bc2, and black has nothing left but spite checks.|
|Apr-14-06|| ||DAL9000: Oh, the pun... the /pun/! So terrible.
I always did wonder about the ending of "Old Yeller," though. Doesn't that seem like a kinda crappy way to mark your passage into manhood?
|Apr-14-06|| ||dakgootje: nice game, even though i wouldnt play Rxh5 myself, even though i calcualted up to 48. f5 but i wouldnt be sure whether white would be better.|
|Apr-14-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: <Good Evening: Why did Geller pass on the old sacrifice 6.Nxf7,Kxf7: 7.Qh5+? Has this been refuted??>|
<An Englishman> Very interesting suggestion!
After <6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Qh5+ Ke6 8.c4 N5f6 9.d5+ Kd6 10.c5+!>, Crafty evaluates the position to be about even.
The sharpest continuation would now be <10...Nxc5 11.Bf4+ Kd7 12.Bb5+ c6 13.dxc6+ bxc6 14.Qxc5> and White has regained the knight he sacked with 6.Nxf7.
Black now has two choices: <14...cxb5> which should keep the excitement in the game or the more defensive option <14...Qb6>. In both variations, White has a slight edge.
Unfortunately, there are no games with <10.c5+> in the database, only games with 10.Qf7?! and 10.Qf5?! which both lead to an advantage for Black. See here: Opening Explorer
|Apr-14-06|| ||acirce: <EmperorAtahualpa> Black has a very difficult game after 10.Qf7! Ne5 11.Bf4 c5 12.Nc3 a6 13.b4, to me it seems he is already close to lost. Why is it you find it dubious?|
|Apr-14-06|| ||Ezzy: E Geller - O Korneev [B04]
04 RUS-ch Elista ;CBM 50 Hecht, 1995
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 dxe5 5.Nxe5 Nd7 6.Be2< Gellers novelty> 6...Nxe5 7.dxe5 Bf5 8.0–0 e6 9.Bf3 c6 10.Qe2 Be7 11.Rd1 Qc7 12.c4 Nb4 13.Nc3 0–0 14.Bf4 Rad8 15.Ne4 Bxe4?! <Giving white the bishop pair when it wasn't necessary is questionable. Blacks bishop was also a useful defender of his kingside, which black now has to weaken.> 16.Bxe4 a5 <To prevent 18 b4 when white increases his space on the queenside.> 17.a3 Na6 18.Bc2 Nc5 <Black should probably keep the knight on a6, as white now achieves his queenside expansion. A better plan for black could probably be 18...Qb6 19...Bc5 with some pressure on f2>. 19.b4 axb4 20.axb4 Na6?! <Moving too far away from the action. 20...Nd7 gives more future options for blacks knight>. 21.Qe4 g6 22.c5 Rd5 23.Bb3 Rxd1+ 24.Rxd1 Qc8 <So while black is spending lots of time re-routing his knight, white has some free time to launch a kingside attack.> 25.h4 Nc7 26.h5 Nd5 27.hxg6 fxg6 28.Bh6 Rf5< Black is now threatening 29...Nc3.>29.g4 Rf7 30.f4 Bf8 <30...Nc3 I think the reason black didn't play this, is because he was worried about whites f5 pawn advance, with pressure on e6, but 32...Kh8 seems to solve those problems 31.Qf3 Nxd1 32.Qxd1 Kh8 33.Qd3 Bf8 and white doesn't want to exchange his bishop, so a repetition of position is likely, and a draw.> 31.Bg5 Bg7 32.Rf1 Qe8 33.Bc2 Nc3 <Strange playing this now when there is no fork.> 34.Qc4 Nd5 35.Qe4 Qc8 36.Bb3 Kh8 37.Bf6 Nxf6 38.exf6 Rxf6 39.g5 Rf8 40.Bxe6 Qd8 41.Kg2 Re8 42.Rh1 <Threat is 43 Qxg6> 42...h5 43.Qe2 <Threatens mate in 4. - 44 Rxh5+ Bh6 45 Qb2+ Qd4 46 Qxd4 Kh7 47 Rxh6 mate> 43...Qe7 44.Rxh5+! gxh5 45.Qxh5+ Bh6 46.Qxh6+ Qh7 47.Qxh7+ Kxh7 48.f5 Rd8 49.Kf3 Rd4 50.Bf7 Kg7 51.Bh5 Rxb4 52.f6+ Kf8 53.g6 b5 54.Bg4 <As Honza Cervenka says 54 g7+ is more precise.> 54...Rxg4 55.Kxg4 b4 56.Kf5 b3 57.Ke6< I wouldn't resign so early if I was playing in a weekend congress. White has a lot of work to keep avoiding the checks, although it is probably plain sailing for Geller.> 1–0
Typical Geller. He sees blacks pieces out of position and then starts a kingside attack.
I still think it would have been a draw after 30...Nxc3. Seems like Geller won the psychological battle as well.
|Apr-14-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: <<EmperorAtahualpa> Black has a very difficult game after 10.Qf7! Ne5 11.Bf4 c5 12.Nc3 a6 13.b4, to me it seems he is already close to lost. Why is it you find it dubious?>|
<acirce> I have no experience with this position whatsoever so I will keep my opinion on a low profile for the moment.
However, when I checked the position after 10.Qf7 with an engine, I saw evaluations coming up in Black's favor. Instead of 10...Ne5!?, Crafty recommends <10...Nb8>!
Here is Crafty's analysis, each halfmove analyzed at 13 ply depth:
<10.Qf7?! Nb8! 11.c5+ Kd7 12.Bb5+ c6 13.dxc6+ bxc6 14.O-O Qa5 (-1.75)>
|Apr-14-06|| ||kevin86: Is this one really buttoned up?
What if:57 ,,,b2 58 g7+ ♔g8 59 ♔e7 b1=♕ 60 f7+ ♔xg7 61 f8=♕+ both sides have a queen and a pawn-What did I miss?
|Apr-14-06|| ||HunImi: <kevin86>See the top of the page!After 57...b2 58.g7+ Kg8 59.Ke7 b1=Q 60.f7+ Kxg7 61.f8=Q+ Kh7 62.Qf7+ Kh6 63.Qf6+ Kh5 64.Qxc6 white has winning Queen ending.|
|Apr-14-06|| ||The17thPawn: <Kevin86> - According to <Honza> this is theoretical win but no cup of tea to be sure. I like Honza's alternate line, it looks buttoned up for certain.|
|Apr-14-06|| ||Confuse: 43 enpassant and i think that would have been easier =) but i have no idea. go geller!|
|Apr-14-06|| ||keypusher: Nice game, one to strike fear into any Alekhinist.
<An Englishman> According to my book on the defense the current evaluation of 6 ♘xf7 is somewhere between "unclear" and "drawish." <AgentRgent> plays this line, I know.
|Apr-14-06|| ||ultradread4: <30...Nc3 I think the reason black didn't play this, is because he was worried about whites f5 pawn advance, with pressure on e6, but 32...Kh8 seems to solve those problems 31.Qf3 Nxd1 32.Qxd1 Kh8 33.Qd3 Bf8 and white doesn't want to exchange his bishop, so a repetition of position is likely, and a draw.> <Ezzy>|
You are correct about Black being concerned about the pressure on e6 and the f5 pawn advance. But white can still play for more, example, your analysis; 31.Qf3 Nd1 32.Qd1 Kh8 and now instead of 33. Qd3 as you suggest, perhaps 33. Qd2 is more to the point.
One line is 33...Bf8 34.f5! Bh6 35. Qh6 Qf8 36.Qf8+! Rf8 37.f6 or 35...gf5 36.Be6 winning for white.
|Apr-14-06|| ||Ezzy: <ultradread4> Thanks for your post.|
I did some analysis on your lines, and for a while they looked promising, but in all lines black can defend adequately, and it is white who is in danger of losing, due to his material deficit. Here are a few brief lines.
(33.Qd2 Bf8 34.f5 Bxh6 <(34...gxf5 35.Bxf8 Rxf8 36.Qd6 fxg4 37.Bxe6 Qd8 38.Bxg4 Kg7 and black is winning.)> 35.Qxh6 Qf8 <(35...gxf5 36.Bxe6 Qf8! and white is not winning)> 36.Qxf8+ Rxf8 37.f6 Re8 <and I would prefer to be the black pieces.>
|Apr-14-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: <<An Englishman> According to my book on the defense the current evaluation of 6 Nxf7 is somewhere between "unclear" and "drawish." <AgentRgent> plays this line, I know.>|
<keypusher> Does your book mention a line with 10.c5+ specifically?
|Apr-14-06|| ||acirce: <EmperorAtahualpa> 10..Nb8 is probably a better try, but 10..Ne5 - where as far as I can see White gets a much better position by force - is the traditional "main line".|
I began to look at this with computer help but there's too much and too uncertain conclusions to sum it up. But I think White is fine even in the line you give. (I don't know much about Crafty but its analysis and evaluations have always seemed superficial to me. I don't see how it can evaluate the final position of that line as that bad for White! For the record, Fritz 9 gives = although I haven't let it run for very long) But White might have better than that anyway. In any case 10..Nb8!? looks much more critical than 10..Ne5?
<keypusher> What is the book and how old?
I hear this is covered in one of the volumes I don't have in the "Opening for White according to Anand" series. Anyone seen it?
|Apr-14-06|| ||Ezzy: <EmperorAtahualpa> If you want to play through some games with 10 c5+ then there are about 15 games with that variation in the chessbase database.|
|Apr-14-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: <Ezzy> Thanks for that link! Unfortunately no games from very prominent players...|
|Apr-14-06|| ||Ezzy: <EmperorAtahualpa:> They are all of master strength though, and it gives you a flavour of what type of positions you can come across. You can analyse each game with your computer to see where possible tactics or improvements in their play can be found.|
I don't think you could solve all the complexities of that opening even if you had a few games by prominent players. You must be going into this pretty deep. Good luck!! :-)
|Apr-14-06|| ||keypusher: <acirce> <EmperorA>|
The book is Starting Out: Alekhine's Defense by John Cox, Everyman 2004. Makes no pretense of being an exhaustive treatise, but I think it's very good for club players.
Re the line under discussion, it says:
<White can win his piece back with 10 c5+ Nxc5 11 Bf4+ Kd7 12 Bb5+ c6 13 dc bc 14 Qxc5 since 14...cb 15 Qxb5+ Ke6 16 Qc6+ wins the rook, but unfairly enough 14...Qb6! forces the exchange of queens and gives Black a very reasonable position. He will trade the light-squared bishops with ...Ba6 and anchor a knight on d5.>
Lest this continuation has been refuted further up the page, Cox later writes, <Black really has to know the variations given here after the sacrifice and, frankly, it's wise to have done a bit more analysis on one's own, since a book such as this can provide no more than a gallop through some of the lines.>
|Apr-14-06|| ||keypusher: <10.Qf7! Ne5 11.Bf4 c5 12.Nc3 a6 13.b4>|
after <acirce>'s other line the book gives 13...Qb6 14 bc Qxc5 15 Rd1 Qa3 and claims Black is better. No idea if that is true. I wouldn't dream of playing this line for either side myself.
|Apr-14-06|| ||acirce: The idea seems to be 14.Rc1. I followed the discussion at Alekhine's Defense (B03) and Fritz-checked it during a whole weekend before playing an OTB game where I suspected that my opponent would allow this line. He did and I won easily. I wouldn't enter this kind of super-sharp positions myself either if I wasn't very sure about what I was doing. Afterwards I heard that 14.Rc1 is also recommended in the book I mentioned, but I know nothing else about what it says.|
4 past midnight here. Good night. :-)
|Apr-15-06|| ||Drifter: white has a "winning game" from move 21 and executes it in brilliant beautiful style.
Played in a way that illustrates the superority of GMs over the rest of us.|
|Apr-15-06|| ||EmperorAtahualpa: Thanks for that, <keypusher>. Say, are there more of these "Starting out" books?|
|Apr-15-06|| ||keypusher: Why yes, there are:
I can't speak to their quality generally, though.
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