< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Oct-06-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: The material is equal for both sides, but White better developed. He is, in fact, even playing a queen up.|
One possibility would be to trap the queen by bringing a pawn to b6, preferably via a4, b5. This will be too slow, for once because black can simply exchange on b5 two times, and secondly because the knight on g5 is being attacked.
The other weak spot is f7. It can be attacked via a2-g8 by the queen or the bishop, and via h5-e8 with the bishop. The knight can sacrifice itself, driving the king into the open.
Interesting would be f4, to open the f-file for the rook after g5:, g5:, but black could simply play Nf6 and Be6, consolidating.
So, the moves
I. 19. Qb3?
1. 19. ... Re7 20. Nf7: Rf7: 21. Bc4, winning
2. 19. ... g5: 20. Bc4 Kh8 21. Bf7: Rd8, and black is better after Nf6 and b6, freeing the queen
II. 19. Bc4? g5:
1. 20. Qb3 Kh8, see I.2
2. 20. Qh5 Re7 21. Bd6 Nf6 22. Qg5: (22. Qg6 Nd5, winning) Re8 23. Qg6 Nd5, and black is winning
III. 19. Bh5? g5: 20. Qb3 Re7 21. Bd6 Nf6 22. Be7: Nh5:, fending off the attack
IV. 19. Nf7: (It would be great, if this knight, not taken, could somehow contribute to trapping the black queen, but it does not seem to be so.)
1. 19. ... Kf7:
a. 20. Qb3+ Ke7 (or Kf6, Kg6)
a1. 21. Bd6+ Kd8, escaping
a2. 21. Bh4+ g5 22. Bh5! Kd8 23. Be8: Ke8: 24. Qe6+ Kd8 25. Bg3, unclear
a3. 21. Bh5 Kd8 22. Bd6 (To prevent Re7 against Qf7)
a31. Nf6? 23. Qf7 b6!, defending (23. Be8: Ne8:, unclear, probably black is better)
b. 20. Bc4+ Ke7 21. Qh5 Kd8 22. Bh4+ g5
c. 20. Bh5+ Ke7 (forced, else Be8: with an exchange up) 21. Qb3 Kd8 22. Be8: Ke8: 23. Rfe1 Nf6 24. Be5 b6 25. Bf6: f6: 26. Re4:+ Kd8 27. Rae1, threatening 28. Re8+, 29. Qf7+, with a mating attack.
This seems to be the most promising line.
|Oct-06-07|| ||ahmadov: <venk98> <same pinch, no returns!=)> I thought I understood English well, but these words make no sense to me... Are they in English? :)|
|Oct-06-07|| ||gaith: Bc4 is good if black play..19hg5 20QH4
(19..g5 20Bf7 Kh8 21Be8)g6 Qg6 (..19Nf6 20Bf7 Kh8Bf8)and win
|Oct-06-07|| ||HelaNubo: IMHO this was a really difficult one. 19. Nxf7 was obvious, but I could not decide between Qb3+ and Bc4+, and I never saw f4. After 19. Nxf7 Kxf7 20. Qb3+ I expected (like dzechiel) 20... Ke7 and did not see 21. Bh5!.
If this is Saturday, what will it be Sunday?!:(|
|Oct-06-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: It would be interesting to see, if Re6 was the best answer.|
We all did no consider f4, because after Ke7 it is pointless.
After Re6 f4 suggests itself.
|Oct-06-07|| ||SaltiNeil: Question to group about giving myself partial credit for solving this one. I got white's first 2 moves okay but did not consider black's 20...Re6. I then played each subsequent move by White (and black) as a puzzle and correctly got up white's 23rd move where I thought 23.Bh4 was best. Is that good enough for a half point or are we supposed to play guess both side's moves?|
|Oct-06-07|| ||kevin86: I great puzzle. Usually I try to guess that first few moves,but I know that inadequate-especially for weekend puzzled,but I still have fun.|
|Oct-06-07|| ||pawnofdoom: The first move of all these puzzles is always easy to find, but calculating the lines and variations that follow is hard. Nxf7 got the king into the open , and Qb3+ was the obvious start of the attack, but I never thought of f4 after all that time of thinking|
|Oct-06-07|| ||Gilmoy: Even material. First impression: Black's Q looks like the jail game (Google "Qa8 jail" => Nimzowitsch vs Hakansson, 1922), his N stifles his QR and QB, his KB is biting granite, and his Rs are split. Black did the Breyer-ish Re8-Bf8 pussyfoot -- this is known to weaken f7 (Google "Kupreichik Bxf7+" => Kupreichik vs A Planinc, 1970).|
White's N is attacked. But Black is effectively down about four pieces and some tempi :) First thought: B(c4,h5), just let the N drop. Second thought: Heck, we've already written it off, why not have some fun with it first?
19.Nxf7 and it's looking like that who-are-you-and-what-have-you-done-with-Botvinnik game (Google "Botvinnik Rxf7" => Botvinnik vs Portisch, 1968).
[A] 19..Kxf7 20.Bh5+ (the skewer is forcing)
:[A1] 20..Ke7 21.Qb3
:[A2] 20..g6 21.Qb3+ Kf6 22.Bxg6! Rf7 (Kxg6 see [A31]) 23.Bxe4 looks winning (Rxe4 24.Qf3+). White has three pawns for the piece, Black is even more congested than before (!), and White's Q quickly joins via Qf3, or Bc2-Qd3, etc.
:[A3] 20..g6 21.Qb3+ Kg7 22.Bxg6
::[A31] 22..Kxg6 23.Qg8+
:::[A31a] 23..Kf6 24.Bh4+ Kf5 25.Qg4#
:::[A31b] 23..Kf5 24.Bh4 (threatens 26.Qg4#)
::::[A31b1] 24.. h5 25.g4+ Kf4 26.Qg5+ Kf3 27.Qe3#
::::[A31b2] 24..Nf6 25.g4+ Kf4 26.Qb3 (mate fork e3/g3) e3 27.fxe3+ Ke4 28.Rf4#
::[A32a] 22..Re7 23.Bh5 Nf6 (else 24.Bd6) 24.Be5 looks winning -- Black can't guard the N and avoid Qg3+, e.g.
:::[A32a1] 24..Rxe5 25.Qf7+ , e.g. Kh8 26.Qxf8+ Ng8 27.Bf7 (27.dxe5? Be6 tedious) Rg5 28.Bxg8 untouchable (Rxg8 29.Qxh6#) Rg6 29.Bd5+ Kh7 30.Bxe4
:::[A32a2] 24..Re6 25.Qg3+ Kh8 26.Bf7 Bg7 27.f4 b5 unclear
:::[A32a3] 24..Re6 25.f3 looks strong
Doesn't look clear. Can we improve?
[B] 19..Kxf7 Qb3+ (delays the annoying g6)
:[B1] 20..Ke7 21.Bh5 see [A1]
:[B2] 20..Kg6 21.Bh5+ Kxh5 22.Qf7+
::[B21] 22..Kg5 23.h4+ Kg4 24.Qg6#
::[B22] 22..g6 (a help-mate) 23.Qxe8 and White mates soon:
:::[B22a] 23..Kg5 24.f4+ .
:::[B22b] 23..Nf6? 24.Qe4+ .
:::[B22c] 23..b5 24.Bf4 Bb7 25.g4+ Kh4 26.Qxg6 .
:[B3] 20..Kf6 21.Bh5 Rf7 (g6 22.Bxg6 [A2]) 22.Bd6 inevitable Qf7+
:[B4] 20..Re6 21.f3 e3 22.f4 Ke7 23.f5 Rf6 24.Bc7 planning 25.Bc4 26.Qxe3+ (and Nb8?? Bb6 has some charm). 24..b5 25.Qxe3+ Kf7 26.Bd8.
Weekend puzzles are annoying -- I feel obligated to chase down almost a full tree, because I lack the insight to prune the search space (and then I miss something silly).
2.5 hours :)
|Oct-06-07|| ||noendgame: I was certain that the knight sac would lead the attack, but I also thought white's bishops would enter into the fray. Instead, they just sat back and watched the fun!|
|Oct-06-07|| ||s.ahmed: But still i'm not clear about blacks Knight sac(23....Nb6?)
Is it meaningfull?|
|Oct-06-07|| ||Inf: <s.ahmed: But still i'm not clear about blacks Knight sac(23....Nb6?) Is it meaningfull?>|
Black wanted to put the knight on d5, sealing the diagonal. And i think 13...Qa7 was a big error putting the queen out of play.
What do you guys think of 18...Nf6? gives room to the black bish, and could block the a2-g8 diagonal.
|Oct-06-07|| ||playground player: You'd think that with Black having a Queen, Rook, and Bishop completely cut off from the action and unable to get back in, there would be many ways for White to make hay. Nxf7 is one of them; I started my combination with Qb3 and still found a way through the defense (19...hxg4, 20. Bh4, and so on). White can bring so many guns to bear against Black's position, I don't see how any successful defense is possible.|
|Oct-06-07|| ||Schach and Awe: Before tackling the puzzle I had to ask myself how Black managed to get his Queen imprisoned. 12. .. Qb6 ? and 13. .. Qa7 ?, whereby 16. .. d5 ? seals her fate as White then plays c5. Black has a lot of work to do her to free her and get her back into the game.
Now back to regularly scheduled programming .. White's move 19. Having seemingly trapped his Knight on g5, his only recourse seems to be a capture at f7, though I suspect this was part of White's plan to take advantage of a weakened Kingside as Black's pieces are not optimally placed.
Possible continuation #1 If 19. .. Kxg7 20. Bh5+ g6 21. Qb3+ Kg7 (looks most probable, as Ke7 drops the g pawn and keeps the King moving to d8 with the threat of Bh4+ next. As I adore Tal's games, it would be time for me to offer another sacrifice, Bxg6, with the threat of Qg8+ to follow, and Black either returning some of White's lost material by interposing the Bishop on g7, or being chased further up the board likely into a mating net at some point.
Possible continuation #2 (King elects not to capture the Knight) say 19. .. Nf6 placing the Knight in a better position 20. Bc4 preparing to unleash a nasty discovered double check 21. Ne5 to protect the Bishop and save itself, and White has a good game with a strong Kingside attack while Black must wrestle to reposition his forces.|
|Oct-06-07|| ||patzer2: White plays the demolition move 19. Nxf7!
as the solution to today's puzzle. He goes on to win in the game continuation. However, Black could have put up better resistance with 20...Ke7, when 21. Bh5 Kd8 22. Bxe8 Kxe8 23. Qe6+ Kd8 24. Qxe4 leaves White with an advantage but is not IMO a clear forced win.
|Oct-06-07|| ||benveniste: <patzer2>, in your line what happens if instead of Qxe4, white continues 24. ♕f7! threatening 25. ♖be1 or 25. d5. Either one looks decisive to me.|
|Oct-06-07|| ||willyfly: Material is even but positions are not. White has space and mobility while Black's ♕ is trapped and both ♗s are seriously impaired. Even Black's remaining ♘ has only one safe square to move to. But it's the white ♘ which is being attacked - so ♘xf7 is indicated even though that doesn't make any direct threat and the ♔ is not obligated to capture.|
19 ♗h5 g6 20 ♕b3 looks interesting - I give up - gonna look now
I think the lesson here is the importance of space and mobility
|Oct-06-07|| ||fm avari viraf: Having a quick peek, I realised that White's N is trapped but at the same time all Black's pieces are uncoordinated so my choice is 19.Nxf7 the "Achilles Heel" ...Kxf7 20.Qb3+ Re6 [ any other K move like ...Ke7 then 21.Bh5 or Kg6 then 21.Bh5+ Kxh5 22.Qf7+ wins ] Here, White has to be very careful & refrain from playing 21.Bc4 then ...Nf6 & Black will come back alive! Therefore, 21.f4 opening the f-file if ...exf3 & also threatening f5 is strong ...Ke7 22.f5 Rf6 & Black is all tied down, hence White is having a huge winning advantage but still have to fight.|
|Oct-06-07|| ||patzer2: <benveniste> The line I gave is probably enough for an endgame win for White. However, after 24. Qf7 at the end of my line it seems to me 24...Re7 prolongs the resistance for Black. Anyone care to provide some computer analysis of the 20...Ke7 21. Bh5 option:?|
|Oct-06-07|| ||zb2cr: I think maybe 1/2 credit for me. I saw the first 2 moves for White, and that if 20. ... Re6, then 21. f4! threatens to win the exchange, thus forcing 21. ... Ke7. However, I was totally unable to see the right follow-up after Black extricated his Rook. |
*SIGH* So many thorny bypaths to get through on the road to (hopefully) being a future GM.
|Oct-06-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <patzer2>, <benveniste>, <dzechiel>, <consul>, and anyone else wondering what happens after 20...Ke7 (the entire line is: 19. Nxf7 Kxf7 20. Qb3+ Ke7)|
A quick forward analysis shows that this line (shown by <patzer2>) appears to be the strongest for both sides:
21. Bh5 Kd8 22. Bxe8 Kxe8 23. Qe6+ Kd8 (Be7 results in mate in 4)
The position now is (white to move):
click for larger view
Hiarcs insists that the best move now is a quiet one (if I did this analysis 20 hours ago, I'd delay posting the rest, to give everyone a chance to figure out the beauty that happens now):
Note that the black is all tied up and cannot make any useful moves. Just about any move by black is followed with Rfe1 and a massacre, e.g.:
24...b6 (trying to activate the queen and disassemble white pawns)
25. Rfe1 bxc5 26. dxc5 Qc7 27. Bd6! (ignore the queen, go for the mate)
27. ... a5 (anything else and Hiarcs claims a forced mate)
28. Rxe4 Ba6 29. Rd1
and we have:
click for larger view
Black has to move now, but he is still all trussed up, and a forced mate in 8 is in the works, e.g.
29. ... Bc4 30. Bxc7+ Kc8 31. Qxc4 Bd6 32. Rxd6 Ne5 33. Rxe5 Kb7 34. Rxc6 Kxc6 35. Qd5+ Kxc7 36. Re7+ Kb8 37. Qd8#
Now, after I backtrack from the position where Hiarcs found the mate, other moves pop up as somewhat better for the black (e.g., 28...QxB, PxQ, but more analysis proves that all of them are losing faster).
BTW, at the crucial point in the above analysis, move 24 for the white has a couple of other alternate winning lines. Here they are, but I did not try to follow and analyze them.
( +14.17) 24. Qg8 etc.
(+13.92) 24. Qf7 b5 25. d5 cxd5 26. c6 Be7 27. c7 Qxc7 28. Bxc7 Kxc7 29. Qxe7 Rb8 30. Rfc1 Kb7
(+10.67) 24. Rfe1 Nf6 25. Qf7
(+10.55) 24. Rbe1 Nxc5 25. Qg8 Nd7 26. Rxe4 Qb8 27. Bxb8 Rxb8 28. Rf4
Backtracking even further shows that the tempting 22...Kxe8 is now considered worse than many alternate moves, e.g., 22...Nf6 - I followed this for a while, until the valuation reached > 10.00 - so, the bottom line is that 20...Ke7 is much, much worse for the black than Re6 (or Kg6, for that matter).
|Oct-06-07|| ||xrt999: I set the game up me against CM,
CM has white ahead 0.40 going into move 17.
Here is how the game went me playing white against CM:
|Oct-06-07|| ||Madman99X: Surely, the aggressive sacrifice isn't necessary here. Black's pieces are completely immobile. Anything that leads to material equality should win over the long term, I think.|
|Oct-06-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <Madman99X: Surely, the aggressive sacrifice isn't necessary here> Alas, the white knight on g5 has no safe retreat, so might just as well go with a bang.|
Anything else but Nxf7 gives advantage to black.
|Oct-07-07|| ||patzer2: <MostlyAverageJoe> Thanks for the deep analysis with Hiracs showing the win after 20...Ke7 21. Bh5! . I suspect it was intuitive for <FM Avari Viraf> to quickly see this as a win for Black, based on the severely cramped and uncoordinated Black pieces. Even so 24. Qg8! to improve on the line I gave is a nice find.|
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