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K Popova vs Kasinova
Moscow (1974)
King's Gambit: Falkbeer Countergambit. Nimzowitsch-Marshall Countergambit (C31)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: Kasinova? Surely this name is headed for a daily pun down the road. The mate is of the Reti-Tartakower,with a few wrinkles thrown in the fray.
Sep-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: As for chessboards and pieces-does anyone recall the one built by Andy Dufrasne in SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION?
Sep-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <ThomYorke> <I think 20.g5 xf6 21.d7 also wins> I think you're right.
Sep-20-05  MaxxLange: Some scholastic coaches tell their students to always play until checkmate. I can imagine their reasoning, in the context of children's tournaments, but at some point they ought to tell the kids that people will look on that unfavorably. I resign when I feel sure that my game is lost AND that I have no reasonable hope of complicating the position or forcing the opponent to prove a difficult win.
Sep-20-05  ThomYorke: <MaxxLange> I think it´s polite to resign in lost positions too. At least in classical chess.
Sep-20-05  Halldor: Since I saw a possible mate pattern Rh8 and the bishop on the diagonal, I tried the queen sacrifice, everything forced and finally Ng5#, so this took me around 5 seconds. I like to imagine that I'm that clever rather than this was easy!
Sep-20-05  Monoceros: Now, I'd resign in an instant if confronted with a K + R vs. K endgame...but I know from experience that many players don't know how to manage even this simple situation. They'll check away aimlessly. Knowing this, in a situation where I know I'm playing weak players (*cough* Yahoo *cough*), is it impolite of me to keep playing?
Sep-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  GoldenKnight: I have generally resigned lost games.

However, there were two exceptions. One was in a tournament. I blundered and my opponent started smiling like he'd really done something. I played 'til mate.

Another time was in a club match when I was playing someone of considerably lower rating. One of my team members said to me, "He's never seen the day when he could beat you." But he played the Colle System, which back then in Northern California was being promugated far and wide by George Koltanowski as the way to beat stronger players.

I succumbed to the mystique and soon had a lost game. At the end it was K & Q vs. my K. Knowing his "ability" I played on. Sure enough, he stalemated me.

To me, the ultimate gentleman was Tal who said in his book, "The Life and Games of Mikail Tal" that he refused to accept a draw in a losing position.

Sep-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  GiuocoPianoMan: <Frankly> First tournament I played in years ago- I was so green I forgot to punch my clock after a move in the middle game. My opponent noticed and he sat back- like he was frozen. It caught my attention and then I noticed my clock. IF he had merely continued to analyze the position, God only knows how long he could have studied the board ON MY TIME. This taught me a lesson about gamesmanship in Chess. Chess is like war. All's fair.
Sep-20-05  midknightblue: While occasionally I see very week players play an endgame where there is absolutely no hope (K R vs K for example) I dont really mind that, mostly because I havent played anyone that has played out such an ending since i learned how to move the pieces as a kid. However, a more common mistake I see is people that resign too early. In non-master play I think there are a lot of positions that are worth fighting on, even when the game is technically lost. The reason is many people at my level (everyone at my level, actually) dont have such great technique to convert every winning position to a win.
Sep-20-05  midknightblue: About this puzzle, maybe not terribly difficult, but good practice. Capture check and forced mate in 4.
Sep-20-05  ThomYorke: <GiuocoPianoMan> Something like that happened to Kasparov agaisnt Karpov. Kaspy just forgot the clock. Both kept playing using kasparov´s time. He only realized some moves ahead. After some moves he resigned cause of his short time.
Sep-20-05  brainzugzwang: <ThomYorke> and <YouRang> <I think 20.g5 Bxf6 21.Rd7 also wins> I'll play that position: 21... Bxg5+ 22.Qxg5 Nxd7 and the mate threat by White is gone, while e-pawn is not long for this world. Or if 21...Bxg5+ 22.Kb1, then what does White do after Qxd7? 23.Rxd7 Bxh4 and White is down too much material, besides having to defend the back rank. Anything I missed? I'm doing this after staring at my work PC for 12 hours, so I might be missing something obvious (no great surprise).
Sep-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <brainzugzwang> This is the line we are considering:

20 Ng5 Bxf6
21 Rd7+

At this point, Black cannot play 21...Bxg5+ as you suggest, because Black's king is in check.

Sep-20-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: I lost a critcial game trying the Falbeer once -this ending was nice but easily solved - instructive and pretty. (But this kind of thing I have seen so many times - never lose the excitemnt of it though!)
Sep-20-05  fgh: I saw Qxh7+ in 0.5 seconds but I took 1.7 seconds to calculate the mating line.

:-)

Sep-20-05  JeffCaruso: <YouRang 20 Ng5 Bxf6 21 Rd7+ At this point, Black cannot play 21...Bxg5+ as you suggest, because Black's king is in check> Not true. Black's ♔ is on g8 where it has been since move 8.
Sep-20-05  tjshann: Interesting discussion about the etiquette of when to resign or play on to mate. I think Donald Byrne had it right in the "Game of the Century" against Bobby: If you see the mate, and it is exceptional, let your opponent deliver it.
Sep-21-05  brainzugzwang: <YouRang: Black cannot play 21...Bxg5+ as you suggest, because Black's king is in check.> Huh? Looks like the King is on g8 at this point.
Sep-21-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  Richard Taylor: < fgh: I saw Qxh7+ in 0.5 seconds but I took 1.7 seconds to calculate the mating line.:-)> Don't be disheartened though - even some very "slow" people turn out to have a "purpose" in life - your vocation may not be chess (chess requires speed - 1.7 seconds is just not good enough) but keep your chin up fgh!!

(Basketweaving?)

Sep-21-05  MaxxLange: <ThomYorke: I think it´s polite to resign in lost positions too. At least in classical chess.>

Yes, it is. But down in the B class, I feel that it's valid to e.g., make someone prove they can win Rook against Rook and f & h pawns. When is a position lost? Against stronger players, I have resigned down an exchange after they had stopped all my counterplay.

Sep-21-05  euripides: <Rook against Rook and f & h pawns.> quite so. It's a theoretical draw.
Sep-21-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  YouRang: <brainzugzwang> You're right. Sorry, that's the 2nd time in two weeks I've analyzed the wrong position. I think your argument stands - I didn't notice previously that 21. Bxg5 was check.
Sep-21-05  MaxxLange: <euripides> Yes, it is, so that's a bad example...there, the etiquette question would be whether to try to win that position from the stronger side. Mednis says that, in practical play, the stronger side wins most of the time, even at the international level, and you should always play it out.

I'm getting the feeling that I never made my point about resigning very well, or maybe I don't really have a point...I'm trying to say that the point where I think you should resign is the point where you no longer have reasonable chances to fight from a losing position: no counterplay, no tactical traps. But different players would have different ideas of what "reasonable" chances are. Resigning simply because your position is lost won't do...if you are down a pawn for no compensation in a middlegame, would you resign? Many would say that you are theoretically lost, but there is a lot of chess left to play.

Sep-21-05  euripides: <max> agreed. A pawn down in a middlegame is too little to resign for unless you're fed up or positionally worse. It also depends on the stage of the game and the kind of game. In British league chess, I've seen a few games where quite good players lost a piece in the first ten moves and play on till about move thirty to make themselves feel better, whereas if they lost the piece on move thirty they'd resign at once. I think that's fair enough. Also, if there are complications, it's always fair to play on until they resolve.
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