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|Jan-31-12|| ||Phony Benoni: |
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The main question I have is whether Black needed to give his queen away at this point. The idea of Bxh5 looks terrifying, but might Black defend with 25...Qd6 for an eventual ...Qg6 after the sacrifice? Or 25...Qd6 26.Bxh5 Nxe5 first.
Black certainly doesn't get much play for the queen, and White untroubledly sets up a sacrifice on h5 that definitely wins.
|Jan-31-12|| ||Pyrus01: 38 ... Rg8
40 ... Rg6
|Jan-31-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <Phony Benoni>
The second line you mentioned is quite interesting. I'm seeing 25...Qd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 27. Be7!! (27. Bd1? f6!) 27...Qc6 28. Bd1 f6 29. Bb3+ Nc4 30. e5 b5 (30...Ra4 and now the pleasant choice of 31. Bxa4 Qxa4 32. Bxf8 or 31. Rc1 increasing the pressure) 31. Rc1 looks good for White.
Therefore, I'm quite sure that 25...Qd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 is winning for White.
Don't forget though that after 25...Qd6 26. Bxh5 that Black can also consider 26...Qxe5 and the suicidal looking (yet possibly alright)26...Bxe5.
I have so far spent a little time on 26....Qxe5, but from what I've seen I haven't determined if the sac is justified, although there is definite pressure by White there.
26...Bxe5 I have not delved deeply into. But if one were to go for 25...Qd6 26. Bxh5 one must look at all variations before embarking on such a course.
Let us also not forget that after 25...Qd6 26. Nxc6 recapture 27. Be7 looks decent (possibly not yet winning, but at least somewhat advantageous) for White.
|Jan-31-12|| ||claia: < LoveThatJoker: Mate cannot be prevented. For example,|
41...Rd1+ 42. Kh2 Ncd8 43. Bh7+ Kh8 44. Bg6+ Kg8 45. Qh7+ Kf8 46. Qh8#>
You could mate the same way with the bishop in e4 (initial position) two moves earlier:
41...Rd1+ 42. Kh2 Ncd8 43. Qh7+ Kf8 44. Qh8#
|Jan-31-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <claia> Yes!
|Jan-31-12|| ||Confuse: It's cute to note that 38. h3 is a necessity in setting up the mate. Obviously Flis knew what he was doing. Great game.|
|Jan-31-12|| ||nvmea: Is it a forced win after 38. h3? I kinda like black's position after Nf5, am I missing something?|
|Jan-31-12|| ||Shams: 4...f5 is very sharp and probably best.|
|Jan-31-12|| ||erniecohen: <LoveThatJoker: <Phony Benoni>
The second line you mentioned is quite interesting. I'm seeing 25...Qd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 27. Be7!! (27. Bd1? f6!) 27...Qc6 28. Bd1 f6 29. Bb3+ Nc4 30. e5 b5 (30...Ra4 and now the pleasant choice of 31. Bxa4 Qxa4 32. Bxf8 or 31. Rc1 increasing the pressure) 31. Rc1 looks good for White...Therefore, I'm quite sure that 25...Qd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 is winning for White.>|
I believe Black has two refutations to 27. ♗e7:
- 27...g5 28. ♕xg5 ♕h6 29. ♕g3 ♕e6 30. ♗xf8 ♔xh8
- prettier, but less effrective, is 27...♗f6 28. ♗xd6 ♗xh4 29. ♗xe5 ♖a5 30. ♖xh4 ♖xe5 -/=
|Jan-31-12|| ||erniecohen: <Phony Benoni: <25...?> |
The main question I have is whether Black needed to give his queen away at this point. The idea of Bxh5 looks terrifying, but might Black defend with 25...Qd6 for an eventual ...Qg6 after the sacrifice? Or 25...Qd6 26.Bxh5 Nxe5 first.>
You are right that 25...♕d6 26. ♗xh5 ♘xe5 is just fine for Black (if he is careful). Probably best is 26. ♘xc6 ♕xc6 27. g4 ♘f6 28. gxh5 ♕xe4+ 29. ♗f3 ♕xh4 30. ♗xh4 ♖xa3 31. ♗xf6 ♗xf6 32. hxg6 ♖c3 33. gxf7+ ♔xf7 34. ♖h7+ ♔e6 35. ♖e1+ ♔d6 and a draw is likely.
|Jan-31-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <erniecohen> In my analysis of Phony Benoni's line 27...g5 can hardly be considered a refutation as simply 28. Bxg5 Ng6 29. Bxg6 Qxg6 (best) 30. Be7 again restores some semblance of material parity. I will admit that it is not winning as I said earlier, but White has his resources and there is still a lot of game to be played.|
Also your second line I would say is accurate and I even like the eval on it as the pawn structure indicates that Black is slightly better.
If anything, I think you're second line looks more like a refutation whereas the first keeps the game very much alive.
That being said, I must admit that 25...Qd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 27. Be7 is not winning for White.
I'm glad that even though it's not my line, I spent time analyzing it. With your help, I have seen that Black has solid defensive resources available to him.
I would also like to add that after 25...Qd6 26. Nxc6 Qxc6 27. g4 is much too weakening for the sake of an attack which you, yourself, have said will lead probably to a draw. Furthermore, I certainly won't go even with my original suggestion of 27. Be7 due to 27...Bf6.
But simply playing for activity with 27. Bb3 so as at a favourable point to bring the R on g1 into the game looks good.
PS. Possibly even 27. a4!? is a try with the idea of setting up a slightly more favourable version of 27. Bb3.
PPS. White's whole setup from around move 14 just looks atrocious aiming for Kingside play when the center is where his attention should be focused. Considering this, and White's need now to re-deploy his pieces, maybe White should have been happy with a draw, but got lucky that Black messed up and let him win!
|Jan-31-12|| ||kevin86: NO ESCAPE! MATE to follow.|
|Jan-31-12|| ||erniecohen: <LoveThatJoker: <erniecohen> In my line 27...g5 can hardly be considered a refutation as simply 28. Bxg5 Ng6 29. Bxg6 Qxg6 (best) 30. Be7 again restores some semblance of material parity. >|
Instead of 28...♘g6, 28...♘f6 29. ♗d1 ♘g6 brings White's atack to an end, leaving Black with a winning material advantage.
That said, by "refutation" I just meant that it shows that 27. ♗e7 is not a viable move.
|Jan-31-12|| ||GlennOliver: Should today's pun have been "The Golden Flis"?
Or do I not understand how to pronounce "Flis" correctly?
|Jan-31-12|| ||erniecohen: <<LoveThatJoker>: I would also like to add that after 25...Qd6 26. Nxc6 Qxc6 27. g4 is much too weakening for the sake of an attack which you, yourself, have said will lead probably to a draw.>|
The 27. g4 line is a good practical bet; there are many chances for Black to go wrong, even after the ♕s are exchanged.
|Jan-31-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <erniecohen> It's interesting how these lines keep evolving and evolving, for my instincts are still guiding me on with 25...Qxd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 27. Be7 g5 28. Bxg5 Nf6
At this point 29. Bf3 is better than your suggestion of 29. Bd1.|
So, 29. Bf3 Ng6 30. e5 leads to a lot of exciting tactical play where I don't see how Black can prevent White from restoring material parity.
Btw, there is no need to put quotation marks on refutation as it makes you sound condescending. And I'm supposing we're here to get to the truth of the position.
Once again, thank you for your help and I look forward to seeing what you think about this new continuation.
|Jan-31-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <erniecohen> I don't think 27. g4 is a good practical bet at all. I think White's pieces are somewhat uncoordinated after 26. Nxc6 Qxc6. 27. g4 only serves to weaken the position further.|
Therefore, at this point white should strengthen his pieces by either 27. a4 or 27. Bb3 with the intention of holding a draw.
|Jan-31-12|| ||erniecohen: <<LoveThatJoker>: It's interesting how these lines keep evolving and evolving, for my instincts are still guiding me on with 25...Qxd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 27. Be7 g5 28. Bxg5 Nf6
At this point 29. Bf3 is better than your suggestion of 29. Bd1.>|
After 29. ♗f3 ♖fe8 30. ♗xf6 ♕xf6 31. ♕h7+ ♔f8 32. ♗e2 ♕g6 33. ♕xg6 ♘xg6, white's position is hopeless:
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|Jan-31-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <erniecohen> I've actually found a line that prevents White from establishing immediate material parity, but that allows White to continue building an attack.|
25...Qxd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 27. Be7 g5 28. Bxg5 Nf6 29. Bf3 Rfe8! (which I found by myself as we were writing at the same time) 30. Rg3 (and not your suggestion of 30. Bxf6?) Kf8! (forced) 31. Bd1. Here surely Black is better, but White still has resources. To go as far as saying that 27. Be7 is not a viable move is almost as bad as me saying that 27. g4 in the 26. Nxc6 Qxc6 line is not a good practical bet. Which I did!
It actually is a good practical bet as you mentioned for it leads to a draw, and my feeling is that after 26. Nxc6 Qxc6 White should be playing for a draw.
So there it is. Again, I can only say that I'm happy I analyzed this position and I'm still thinking that OTB, after 25...Qxd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 27. Be7 Bf6 (which you gave earlier) is Black's easiest and clearest way of establishing the advantage.
|Jan-31-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: I would like to add that after 30. Rg3 Ng6 then comes into play with strength. |
OTB, though Phony Benoni brought about an interesting idea with 25...Qd6 26. Bxh5 Nxe5 as 27. Be7 still brings about quite a few pitfalls for Black. Lovely is the line that goes 27. Be7 g5 28. Bxg5 Nf6 29. Bf3 Ng6 30. e5!
In analysis it's easy, but OTB finding the best moves is something that not even the player of the Black pieces managed to do in this game! And he had the better game!
So props to Phony Benoni for introducing the 25...Qd6 move. As it is Black's most advantageous move. Which forces my original idea of 26. Nxc6 Qxc6 and now 27. a4!?/27. Bb3 or erniecohen's 27. g4.
|Jan-31-12|| ||erniecohen: I think we all agree that Black can draw with 25...♕d6, and that the bishop sac on h5 is more bark than bite. However, 25. ♗b3, followed by g4-h5-g6 appears to win for white:|
- 25. ♗b3 ♖xa3 26. ♘xe5 ♕d4 27. ♘xc6 ♗xc6 28. ♗xf7+ ♖xf7 29. ♖xa3
- 25. ♗b3 ♘d6 26. ♘d2 ♕e2 27. ♗d1 ♕a6 28. g4 and Black has no defense to white's K-side threats.
|Jan-31-12|| ||LoveThatJoker: <erniecohen> You are right in that the bishop sac on h5 is more bark than bite. I remember that Phony Benoni posted that shortly after the GOTD went up. Meaning he cooked up the idea in a matter of minutes.|
So yeah, with analysis the sac on h5 is unsound, but it was definitely good analyzing it as there are some really cool tactical ideas there.
Good job on presenting some of the lines you did, btw.
|Jan-31-12|| ||brainzugzwang: OK, I must be missing something painfully obvious. I also didn't see the point behind Black giving up the queen, but all that analysis starts after White's 25. Nxe5.|
So my question goes back a move before -- why not 24... Qxa2? I don't see an immediate trapping of the Black Q, which can get back along the diagonal to the kingside if needed or continue harvesting pawns on the Q-side.
|Jan-31-12|| ||Penguincw: A rook+minor piece don't do well against the queen anyways.|
|Jan-31-12|| ||erniecohen: <brainzugzwang> White goes through with the g4-h5-g6 attack. If black tries to bottle up the attack with g5, white uses the h4 lever.|
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