< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Mar-27-08|| ||kevin86: First,I looked for some way to divert the queen and possibly pick off a rook. Then I looked at 22...♕h3-but saw no future in that. Finally,I found the solution: 22...♖xg2+ cannot be refused and when accepted,exposes white to an attack by queen and rook.|
The final move is the real coup-white has no defense to the mate threats and cannot play 25 ♖xd2 under penalty of 25...♕xf1#.
|Mar-27-08|| ||piever: <And yeah, 22...Qe2(?) should give black an advantage - after 23.Rxd8+ Rxd8 24.Qc4 (<zooter>'s 24.Qc2 loses immediately to 24...Rd2) 24...Rd2 25.Qxe2 (25.Qxe6+ Kb7 26.Qh3 Rd3 followed by Rxc3) 25...Rxe2 and Black wins a pawn and might be able to win the endgame.> I couldn't find the right continuation after 22...Rxg2, so I focused on 22..Qe2. My main line was 22...Qe2 23. Rxd8 Rxd8 24. Qc4 (otherwise black plays Rd2) Qe3+ 25. Kh1 (if Rf2 then Rd1+, winning) Rd6 and now black is clearly better.
I would be very grateful if a better chessplayer than me or someone with a chess software (or even a good player with a software:)) analysed the position after 22 ... Qe2 to see if:|
1) my line is correct
2) black is really winning
|Mar-27-08|| ||SuperPatzer77: White can start his desperadoes after 24. Kh3 Rg8 - 25. Rd8+!? (with idea of 26. Qd1+ to prevent Black's attack) Rxd8! , 26. Rg1 Qh5+, 27. Kg2 Rd2+! and mates in next move. 0-1|
|Mar-27-08|| ||dzechiel: <UdayanOwen: I'd just like to add a thought to the discussion about why everyone's missing 24...Rd2.>|
Speaking for myself, in my mind the white queen was totally out of the picture (as was the white knight) and I didn't even look at them when considering ...Qxe4+. Had I noticed that this move failed, there's a good chance that I would have spotted ...Rd2.
But no excuses, I messed up on that line big time.
|Mar-27-08|| ||Eyal: <UdayanOwen: I'd just like to add a thought to the discussion about why everyone's missing 24...Rd2.|
I don't know that it is just the transition from vertical to horizontal [...] I think that the main problem is that it is very rare that when two rooks challenge each other on a file, that one can just walk into the seventh rank with impunity.>
Yes, that's certainly true as well - the difficulty probably results from a combination of both factors. The problem of spotting the possibility of "just walking into the seventh rank with impunity" like that is an example of the more general problem of finding moves in which we place our pieces on squares where they are - supposedly - attacked by enemy pieces; our instinct is to dismiss such moves automatically.
|Mar-27-08|| ||keracim: Can someone explain whats wrong with h3? I thought this wins|
|Mar-27-08|| ||sombreronegro: Hello piever,
I do not have any computer resources lined up but ..
22 Q-e2 was my move as well but rather ineffective in lines I have followed.
"My main line was 22...Qe2 23. Rxd8 Rxd8 24. Qc4 (otherwise black plays Rd2) Qe3+ 25. Kh1 (if Rf2 then Rd1+, winning) Rd6 and now black is clearly better."
seems inferior to 22...Qe2 23 Rxd8 Rxd8 24 Nc4. This prevents the rook the 2nd rank and defends e3
23 ...Kxd8 also fails to Qd1+ forcing thee trade of queens. Qe2 requires precise play but with correct defense I do not see an advantage for black.
|Mar-27-08|| ||crwynn: It's funny, I found 24...Rd2 and "escaped" the 24...Qxe4?? mishap because I did not even think of the move...in some other variation I did actually look at ...Qxe4 and *did not notice that it was defended* (except in a line with Qc2, when I *did* see it). Bizarre folie a deux - maybe it's not Rd2 that's so hard to find, as the Qa4 defending e4...which really oughtn't be.|
|Mar-27-08|| ||sombreronegro: 'keracim: Can someone explain whats wrong with h3? I thought this wins'|
This threatens g2 but Q-c2 defends it.
|Mar-27-08|| ||wals: Had Rxg2 as a reasonable move but went astray in the forcing moves. Damn, blast.|
|Mar-27-08|| ||johnlspouge: <<Eyal> wrote: [snip] The problem of spotting the possibility of "just walking into the seventh rank with impunity" like that is an example of the more general problem of finding moves in which we place our pieces on squares where they are - supposedly - attacked by enemy pieces; our instinct is to dismiss such moves automatically.>|
I disagree respectfully, <Eyal>. The discovery of "impossible" moves is the whole point of the puzzles: puzzles permit us to display the innate brilliance we all possess ;>) If the Monday problem were the position before the move Rd2, none of us would be crying now. I believe there are three factors in the many failures today: (1) imperfect visualization; (2) excessive focus of attention on the K-side attack; and (3) not discovering the correct line first. (See
<<crwynn> wrote: It's funny, I found 24...Rd2 and "escaped" the 24...Qxe4?? mishap because I did not even think of the move>)
The biggest factor in solving a tough problem is <wanting> to solve the problem. We had a solution with the move Qxe4+, stopped looking, and did not look further for the right line - a painful demonstration of the necessity of calculating variations correctly the first time.
|Mar-27-08|| ||Samagonka: How come I found this one easy?|
|Mar-27-08|| ||znprdx: This is as perfect as an execution gets- the exquisite >coup de grace< Rd2 - which is easy to find once you are there .. |
AND IF YOU LOOK FROM BLACK'S SIDE...which I didn't: so I blundered around like a patzer - not seeing what to do after the Rf2 defense...( thanx <Creg>) so I settled on an immediate Qe2 which I thought was enough to win....glad to see I wasn't alone....
|Mar-27-08|| ||ConstantImprovement: |
22. ... Rg2:+ should be the solution.
I. 23. Kh1 Qh2#
II. 23. Kg2: Qe2+
II.1. 24. Kh3 Rg8 25. Rd8+ Rd8: (25. ... Kd8:? 26. Qd1+ Qd1: 27. Rd1+ Ke7 28. Nc4 Nd7 and perhaps because of the black extra pawn) 26. Rg1 (To prevent Rg8 and move the attacked rook) Rd2 and because of Qh2:+ or Qg2+.
II.2. 24. Kg1 Rg8+ 25. Kh1 (25. Kh3 Qh5#) Qg2#
II.3. 24. Kh1 Rg8 25. Rg1 (25. Qc2 Qf3+ 26. Qg2 Qg2:#) Qf3+ 26. Rg2 Qg2:#
II.4. 24. Rf2 Rg8+ 25. Kh1 (25. Kh3 Qh5#) Qf2: 26. Rg1 (26. Qc2 Qf3+ 27. Qg2 Qg2:#) Qf3+ 27. Rg2 Qg2:#
|Mar-27-08|| ||crwynn: <II.3. 24. Kh1 Rg8 25. Rg1 (25. Qc2 Qf3+ 26. Qg2 Qg2:#) Qf3+ 26. Rg2 Qg2:#>|
Today is queen-hanging day :) check your 25.Qc2 line again....
|Mar-27-08|| ||piever: Hi sombreronegro.
Thank you for your answer.
However, 22...Qe2 23 Rxd8 Rxd8 24 Nc4 f3! is winning for black, so maybe white should have played 24 Qc4, as suggested by Eyal. In my line black is probably winning and has got a good positional advantage (he controls the only open column, his queen is well placed, he might later move his knight to c5 via d7), yet 22..Rxg2 was clearly a more elegant finish...
|Mar-27-08|| ||JG27Pyth: I feel so much better! Came to this party late, and I was all ready to field the usual "too easy, .3 seconds, etc." But it gave lots of regulars probs... and I failed as well. Rd2 is so damn obvious *after it's pointed out to you* |
|Mar-27-08|| ||JG27Pyth: <It's likely a majority of the kibitzers missed it because in many of our minds with the rook sac on g2 opening the g-file you feel obliged to put a major piece of some kind on it.> |
Yes. I think that's the answer. Sure, people tend to be blind to ranks.. but honestly the Kibitzers here aren't all patzers and usually find moves a lot lot less obvious than moving a rook to seventh rank move -- I mean a rook to the seventh rank should be <the first thing you check> EXCEPT: ... the sac sure likes like it's forcing open the G file... I mean, you sac a rook on the G file to force open the G file, right?!? well, no, not this time... it's a <sac for time> allowing the Queen to penetrate with a tempo-winning, game winning check on the seventh rank, with the d-file rook dropping to the seventh to support it.
|Mar-27-08|| ||FelipeGab: I think 22... Qe2 is a good move. What happens if 23...Kxd8?|
|Mar-27-08|| ||SuperPatzer77: <ConstantImprovement> <You stated that 24. Kh1 Rg8> 24...Rg8 is incorrect. After 24. Kh1, the correct move by Ignatz Von Kolisch is 24...Rd2! so, it is a lot better than 24...Rg8.|
However, your analysis is correct except 24. Kh1 Rg8. Actually, Ignatz Von Kolisch's move is 24...Rd2!
|Mar-28-08|| ||The Long Diagonal: <MaxxLange:
The Russians say "a patzer forgets the ranks", right? This is a notorious blind spot that many players have. I know I have lost horribly due to this before.
I have heard the theory that, since so much of our attention in chess is centered on advancing forward, it is easy to overlook both lateral and retreating moves.>
That's exactly the phrase I was thinking of after I saw the solution (had seen the rook sac and the idea ... Qe2 but kept stubborbly trying to combine that with ... Rg8). It was the CG´s quote of the day some weeks ago.
|Mar-28-08|| ||whiteshark: It took three steps to find the solution:
1) After <22...Rxg2+ 23.Kxg2> the immediate check <23... Rg8+ 24.Kh1> didn't work.
2) After <22...Qe2 23.Rxd8+ Rxd8 24.Qc4> it will be a long endgame if ♕s werde traded-off
3) A combination of moves <22...Rxg2+ 23.Kxg2 Qe2+> and now 24...Rg8+ is decisive.
|Mar-28-08|| ||SuperPatzer77: <whiteshark> - Your explanation is absolutely correct - 22...Rxg2+! is the only move for Black's win. |
23. Kxg2 Qe2+!
Two options for White are below:
1) 24. Kg1 Rg8+ (That's decisive, of course)
2) 24. Kh1 Rd2! (much better than 24... Rg8 because 25. Rxd2 Qxf1#). Checkmate is inevitable.
Thus, 24. Kh1 Rg8 doesn't work; it allows White to escape checkmate.
That's why Ignatz Von Kolisch's correct move is 24...Rd2! after 24. Kh1.
|Apr-01-08|| ||whiteshark: <SuperPatzer77> You are absolutely right regarding 24.Kh1 Rd2! (and <Rg8 doesn't work>). Thanks a bunch!|
|Oct-18-10|| ||sevenseaman: 22...Rg2 is really a subtle idea that gives birth to Rd2. One must appreciate that Black's mind could have been preoccupied with engaging the enemy on d1. This latter would really be 'tilting at the windmills'.|
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