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Nigel Short vs Ljubomir Ljubojevic
SWIFT Tournament 2nd (1987), Brussels BEL, rd 5, Apr-15
Sicilian Defense: Najdorf Variation (B90)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: <I had you pegged as a player not a computer jockey. Stop messing about and switch the bloody thing off.>

<Sally>

Maybe I should switch my mind off.. then we're finally all the same..

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <WorstPlayerEver> <why did you deliberately ignore the 30. Qe4>

<Deliberately ignore>?

First, I did post above in reply to <wtpy> <Qe4...saving the immediate loss of the 2nd pawn>

30. Qe4 Bxe4+ 31. K moves <Bxc2> and then how is White not losing the 2nd pawn?

I got no reply from <wtpy> or anyone else.

Second, as I said, I gave an <example line>. Then I asked you what you need to see, before you post your line.

Oct-04-17  Sally Simpson: Hi W.P.E.

"Maybe I should switch my mind off."

So this is where you have been going wrong.

You are a a thinker. (that's cheating.) You should be like the rest of us.

The moment we log on and see the golden Knight and the chessgames.com logo we put our brains into neutral, thumbs up our asses and look for someone to argue with.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: <beatgigant>

Oh well, I'll see what I can do. Latur.

<Sally>

Lol

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: The WPE (World's Perfect Engine) is back!

30. Qe4 Be4 31. Kg1 Bc2 32. Nd4 Be4 33. Nf5 gf5 34. Bd4 h6 35. Rc7 Rb5 36. Bc3=

Although Black is two pawns up and there could be plenty of other variations where Black is two pawns up, it won't change the outcome.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <WorstPlayerEver> Let's stipulate your line for the moment. Here is your final position:


click for larger view

Based on what do you claim White can save this? Did you have two engines battle it out several times?

Here's a sample winning attempt for Black from the above position:

36...Rd5 37. Ra7 Rd1+ 38. Kf2 Rh1 39. Kg3 Rg1+

Soon the h-pawn or f-pawn will fall and Black will be 3 pawns up. And again, all easy moves for Black and I made no attempt to optimize this using engines.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: 36... Rd5 37. Rd7
Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: <beatgiant>

PS I use engines since 1981, Sensor Chess, Scisys

Several years I didn't play chess at all, but when I did, I always used the same method: when I see a line is losing then I look for a better one until I am quite sure it's a draw.

Atm I only use SF8 on my tab.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <WorstPlayerEver> Are you going to back up your claim that it's drawn by posting a line that actually ends in a clearly drawn situation with no more possible winning attempts for Black?

Because if the attitude is that others have to prove <it's a win> or else it's a draw, then I'd like to know what your criterion is for a <clearly winning position>, if two pawns up and major positional advantage is not enough. It might take me significant work to go over this position carefully and show how Black must inevitably win another pawn, or a piece, or whatever.

To be clear, I'd agree with you if you merely said resignation was premature. Black does need decent technique here. But if you say it's objectively drawn, again I'd ask on what did you base that opinion.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: <beatgigant>

I can give more exciting lines yes. But since I am on a tab, I first have to write everything down and then put it in the editor here. Kinda time consuming.

Besides, it's not 'my attitude', it's a puzzle. It might sound that way, but that's just how I write. My apologies if I sound somewhat abrupt sometimes, but my mind is pretty restless.

However, I play *chess* when I feel like it. It comes in rushes. Until the weekend I have little time for chess.

It's evening where I live now, so I won't analyze; then I am going to dream about chess and I don't like that. Because I have no clue what's going on at the board when I am dreaming about chess.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <beatgiant.....Because if the attitude is that others have to prove <it's a win> or else it's a draw, then I'd like to know what your criterion is for a <clearly winning position>, if two pawns up and major positional advantage is not enough....>

If you play the way <I> do, you might need more. (laughs)

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: Eying at the first game S-F 1972.. how many lines do I have to come up with before it's accepted as a draw?

1K? 1M? 1B? 1T? I already pointed out the ridiculousness of it all.. do you guys actually ENJOY chess or are you on some mission?

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: PS I don't mean you, perfidious 😛
Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <WorstPlayerEver> <how many lines do I have to come up with before it's accepted as a draw?>

It's not about the number of lines, what's been lacking so far is an explanation why anyone should believe White can hold in spite of the large material and positional minuses. This means a theory of how White is going to win back the material, or blockade the extra pawns, or generate counter-play, or trade down into a book draw or whatever.

Even only one line, but which well illustrates your idea, might be enough, assuming it really is true that you've found a draw.

Oct-04-17  Sally Simpson: Hi W.P.E.

So you think before you post and you sleep.

C.G. members never sleep, there is always someone awake to argue with.

Take the dog for walk, then two cups of coffee and comeback here and pick on someone. ...anyone!

I've worked my though the alphabet and have just finished 'W' (that will be you) now off to find a 'X' have to hurry because my sub runs out on Oct 8 and then I'm afraid to say it will be...toodley pip.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: By the way, in the line with 30. Qe4 Bxe4+ 31. Kg1, probably <31...Bd5> is better than ...Bxc2 as I posted above, because then after 32. Nd4 Rxb2 33. Nxf5 gxf5, White's remaining queenside pawn is not passed and it takes a few more moves to activate White's rook.
Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: <Sally>

Well, it's raining and I don't have a dog. Besides, I go to bed now 😊

<beatgigant>

Lol what's next? Hey, I am sorry but if you are so obsessed with this game, I can't help you out. I tried, but I give up. You won (thanks Mr. Short)!

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <WorstPlayerEver> <I tried, but I give up.> Thanks. But I must have missed the part where you tried (i.e. to explain why you think it's a draw, or to give a line that ends in a drawish-looking position).
Oct-04-17  Sally Simpson: Good night W.P.E.

Dream of a chess clock with a flag about to fall. You will wake up in a sweat flapping around trying to press a button on an imaginary clock.

Oct-04-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: Thank you Sally.

Nah, I just woke up in tranquility. In one of my dreams I learnt a column is in fact another diagonal.

The great thing about dreams is they make little sense. Which is funny, because humans think they make sense while they actually do not make ANY sense whatsoever.

Oct-05-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: Ah, now I understand!

"30.Qe4 Bxe4+ 31.Kg1 Bd5 32.Nd4 Rxb2 33.Nxf5 gxf5 34.c4 Be4 35.Kf1 h6 36.Ke1 Kh7 37.Rc3 Kg6 38.h3 f6 39.c5 dxc5 40.Bxc5 Kf7 41.Bd6 h5 42.Rc7+ Kg6 43.Rc3 Rh2 44.Kf1 h4 45.Be7 Kf7 46.Bd6 Bd5"

This is cg engine analysis. 24 fuel 6 minutes lol

Let's start with an improvement 35. Rd1

Oct-05-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: black sacs and regains the queen.
Oct-10-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver:


click for larger view

/

Black to move,

I am quite sure one has to consider positions like this one, to get a good understanding of this endgame. Because this could be a possible position after 35. Rd1

Oct-13-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver:


click for larger view

Mwhuahahahahhah it's still a draw, afaiac

Oct-18-17
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <WorstPlayerEver> Agreed, White should aim to trade down to a book draw. But the big question is whether that can be achieved. There are many mysteries in this ending.

Starting from our line above:
<30.Qe4 Bxe4+ 31.Kg1 Bd5 32.Nd4 Rxb2 33.Nxf5 gxf5>


click for larger view

One plan of attack for Black is to advance on the kingside and go after the f-pawn, trading a rook for bishop and pawn and reaching an ending with three pawns for the exchange. This leads to positions like the following:


click for larger view

If a pair of the extra pawns were not doubled, it would look like an easy win for Black. But as it is, it might even be drawn. At least I can't give a convincing winning procedure from there.

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