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Frank James Marshall vs Carlos Torre Repetto
en route for Baden-Bade (1925), GER
Mexican Defense: General (A50)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-06-04  Whitehat1963: Is this Marshall's worst a** kicking?
Feb-06-04  Benjamin Lau: 3. d5? is questionable. Better would have been Nf3 and transposing into a good old Chigorin's Defense with good play for white. 4. b3? and you have to feel sorry for Marshall when he gets pummeled on the dark squares.
Apr-08-04  ArturoRivera: I am from from México so i now that Torre Repetto (a mexican) used a weapon called Mexican defense to the queen pawn opening (that was used in this game) in wich d5 is very questionable and Nf3 is almost an automatic response.
Aug-16-04  Kaspy2: Orlov discusses this game in his book on the mexican aka black knights tango. he writes that this game was published in a latvian chess mag. It was actually played onboard a ship enroute to Baden-Baden where Torre played Saemisch with A50. Frank should have played 6.Nc3 - maybe he was seasick to not see it ;-)
Jun-19-05  who: 6.Bc3 works as well.
Jun-19-05  aw1988: This was most likely played on a train.
Jun-19-05  aw1988: Uh, that was before I saw Kaspy2's post.
Jun-19-05  RookFile: Well, 6. Bc3 and white is fine, right?
Oct-18-06  syracrophy: This game was played in the boat "S.S. Antonia" (Cunard Line), in route to the tournament of Baden Baden. There Marshall and Torre became good friends and played a session of blitz. In one of those games, Torre wanted to try one of his ideas: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 Nc6!?. Marshall wanted to punish that strange variation and lost in just seven moves.

After 7...Qf6 8.Ngf3 Ng4 9.Rb1 Nexf2 10.Qc2 Ne3 11.Qb2 Bc3 12.Qa3 Nc2+ wins the queen

Oct-18-06  syracrophy: <<RookFile: Well, 6. Bc3 and white is fine, right?>>

Yes. 6.Nd2?? was the horrible blunder. 6.Bc3 was correct

Jun-26-08  Alphastar: Bc3 with equality.
Nov-23-08  megatacos: thats a funny game, marshall got demolished
May-05-09  JManRio: If only this game could be used for the Pun challenge... "Repetto Never Again"
May-27-11
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: I was fortunate enough to repeat this line (as Black) in a blitz game I played on FICS, except that White deviated with 7.Bxe5 Bxd2+ 8.Qxd2 Nxd2 9.Kxd2 d6 10.Bb2 (10.Bxg7? Qg5+) exd5 11.cxd5 Qg5+ 12.e3 Qxd5+ and I won.
Jan-01-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  profK: Moral is, playing silly moves against a silly defence can get you a silly result. This is a perfect example.
Nov-21-12  Maatalkko: I played this exact game last night. My opponent continued 8. Nh3 Neg4 9. f3 Qh4+ 10. g3 Nxg3 11. Rg1 Nh1+ 12. Rg3 Nxg3 0-1

I thought that it must have been one of my most crushing games ever. Then I remembered that Torre won a 3. d5 Tango miniature against Marshall and sure enough, it was the same line.

Nov-21-12  Shams: <Maatalkko>, <FSR> I too got to play this once-- I think anyone who plays the Tango for even six months is likely to see it once. There aren't many quick kills for Black with this defense, so this one definitely stands out.

Maybe Marshall pleaded seasickness, and retired to his chambers?

Nov-21-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <Shams: <Maatalkko>, <FSR> I too got to play this once-- I think anyone who plays the Tango for even six months is likely to see it once.>

I think two people have now fallen into this trap against me.

<There aren't many quick kills for Black with this defense, so this one definitely stands out.>

Far and away the most common quick kill in my experience occurs after 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 Ng6 6.Bd3 Bc5. Now people just <love> to play 7.Nge2?? http://www.365chess.com/opening.php... After 7...Ng4 they could already resign, but usually stagger on with 8.0-0? Qh4 and end up in an ending an exchange and a pawn down after 9.h3 Nxf2 10.Rxf2 Qxf2+ 11.Kh1(!) Nh4 12.Qg1. (Note that 11.Kh1(!) at least avoided 11.Kh2?? Nh4 12.Qg1 Nf3+.)

Nov-21-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <FSR> and <Shams>: In that DB, it is surprising how poorly White scores from the position after 6....Bc5. Believe this was the line I played into against Orlov years ago when he blasted me off the board.
Nov-21-12  Maatalkko: <FSR> I've run into 6. Nge2 Bc5 7. Bg5? Bxf2+ before. I think there are a fair number of quick kills in the Tango, at least for a 1. d4 defense.

Just curious, <FSR>, how often do you encounter the 3. Nf3 e6 4. a3 variation, and what is your response? Do you go for the ...d6, ...g6, ...Bg7, ...0-0, ...Re8, and ...e5 plan? These lines seem to be the toughest for Black based on the Opening Explorer. Luckily, my OTB friends don't know this and at my level (1500s on FICS) I almost never see it. I mostly get to play against 3. Nc3 and 3. d5, which is pretty sweet because those lines are surprisingly weak IMHO. I would imagine that players select the tough line more often at your level.

Nov-21-12  Maatalkko: <perfidious> Actually, it's surprising how poorly White scores after 5. e4 in general. I am pretty convinced that 5. e4 is an inaccurate move. It is aesthetically pleasing, but it doesn't really do much because d5 does not need extra support and Black has no intention of advancing his e pawn. Conversely, it strengthens Black's DSB because it weakens the c5-f2 diagonal after ...Bc5 or creates a target on e4 after ...Bb4. It also opens f4 for Black's knight and spends a tempo while doing nothing to advance White's development. I usually gain an opening advantage after 5. e4, which is sometimes magnified by White because he thinks he has an opening advantage.
Nov-21-12  Shams: <FSR><Far and away the most common quick kill in my experience occurs after 3.Nc3 e5 4.d5 Ne7 5.e4 Ng6 6.Bd3 Bc5. Now people just <love> to play 7.Nge2??>

Yeah, that's a good one.

Palliser gives 6.Be3! as White's only serious try for advantage out of many alternatives in that line. But I agree with <Maatalkko> that White does best avoiding d4-d5 altogether in the opening.

Nov-21-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <Maatalkko: <FSR> I've run into 6. Nge2 Bc5 7. Bg5? Bxf2+ before.>

Oh yes, I've definitely played that one a number of times. That's a very naive trap; no one with any familiarity with basic tactics should fall into it. (Cf. the Budapest trap 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e5 3.d5 Bc5 4.Bg5?, and now 4...Ne4! and 4...Bxf2+! are both strong.) The trap occurring after Bd3 and Nge2?? is a little more unusual - that setup is solid against the King's Indian and Benoni, and White doesn't usually have to worry about f2 in 1.d4 openings - so you see a somewhat more sophisticated group falling into it.

<I think there are a fair number of quick kills in the Tango, at least for a 1. d4 defense.>

I agree; that's one thing I like about it.

<Just curious, <FSR>, how often do you encounter the 3. Nf3 e6 4. a3 variation, and what is your response? Do you go for the ...d6, ...g6, ...Bg7, ...0-0, ...Re8, and ...e5 plan? These lines seem to be the toughest for Black based on the Opening Explorer.>

I don't see it too often, since I mostly play random people on the Internet. Higher-rated players are much more likely than average players to play that line. For example, GM Yury Shulman played it against me in a simul last month. I played the plan you mentioned and he got less than nothing, although he managed to eventually win anyway.

Lower-rated players are, as you say, much more likely to play 3.Nc3 or 3.d5. Both are playable, of course, but like you I'm a lot happier to see them than 3.Nf3 (either with 4.a3 or 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Qc2, transposing to the Zurich Variation of the Nimzo-Indian). Black gets a plus score against <everything> except 3.Nf3. Opening Explorer Of course, that's probably partly because 3.Nf3 is disproportionately played by strong players.

Nov-22-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: <FSR> Most certainly, if I were to face this monstrosity of Orlov's again, I should play 3.Nf3 instead of entering the maelstrom. The irony is that Orlov missed a still quicker win, in a game which lasted barely twenty moves.
Nov-05-15
Premium Chessgames Member
  Domdaniel: Fascinating insights from several Tango Artists.
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