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Later Kibitzing> |
| Dec-26-15 | | offramp: For those of you that have the knowledge, this game is the main subject of The London Times Listener Crossword number 4377, <Russian Roulette>, by Rasputin (Saturday, December 19th 2015, Review Section). |
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| Jan-28-16 | | ragtag: They can't move until Joe gets out of the bathroom..... |
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| May-30-16 | | faysalshovon: sdjhdfff fdgsagtrtrwsersdsdsaghhj dsgh |
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| Jul-20-16 | | Charly Dono: The immortal of the game is the end of zugzwang , not the previous development. It is the spirit of chess Nimzowitch , put into the same size space , time and pieces
(life) |
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Apr-29-17
 | | ChessHigherCat: <Karpova: <wellsometimes> You aren't wrong:
24...Re2! (25.Qb3 Ba4 26.Rc8+ Rf8) is given as a simple win of the Queen on pages 284 of Garry Kasparov's 'On my Great Predecessors Part I', Everyman, 2003> >I just saw that, too, as I was playing through the game but I was afraid to ask because I thought I nobody would answer (as usually happens when there's no error to correct) or else somebody would say: "No, you %##$%, that loses everything because..." |
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| Apr-29-17 | | catlover: <offramp> Interesting. Looks like crossword puzzles for VERY serious crossword fans. |
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| Apr-29-17 | | JimNorCal: Over the months I return to see my comment above, that after exhausting Qside pawn moves white will have to make a losing move. One response is from <kereru> and reads in part "White can defend ... by giving up a piece ... So no, it's not a "zugzwang"." I've tried to make sense of that but failed. So it's still a zugzwang position, at least in my view. |
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| Apr-30-17 | | JimNorCal: Personally, I would not equate "giving up a piece to obtain a lost position" with "sac a piece".
But that's just me. |
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| Apr-30-17 | | offramp: <JimNorCal: Personally, I would not equate "giving up a piece to obtain a lost position" with "sac a piece". But that's just me.> What if you are a piece ahead at the time, as in this game? |
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| Apr-30-17 | | JimNorCal: After donating the piece, White is down 2 pawns.
A lost position.
If he did not have to move, White has a material advantage- piece for 2 pawns.
Hey, "if he did not have to move" ... there's a name for that condition ... starts with 'z' ... |
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Apr-30-17
 | | keypusher: <JimNorCal: Over the months I return to see my comment above, that after exhausting Qside pawn moves white will have to make a losing move. One response is from <kereru> and reads in part "White can defend ... by giving up a piece ... So no, it's not a "zugzwang"."
I've tried to make sense of that but failed. So it's still a zugzwang position, at least in my view.> As with many arguments, it comes down to how you define the term at issue. Some people define zugzwang as <you lose because you have to move and for no other reason>. A simple example is: White: pawn on d7, K on e6. Black: King on d8. If Black has to move, he loses. If he doesn't, he draws. Under this definition, the final position in this game isn't zugswang. From the wikipedia article: <White has a few pawn moves which do not lose material, but eventually he will have to move one of his pieces. If he plays 1.Rc1 or Rd1, then 1...Re2 traps White's queen; 1.Kh2 fails to 1...R5f3, also trapping the queen, since White cannot play 2.Bxf3 because the bishop is pinned to the king; 1.g4 runs into 1...R5f3 2.Bxf3? Rh2 mate. Angos analyzes 1.a3 a5 2.axb4 axb4 3.h4 Kh8 (waiting) 4.b3 Kg8 and White has run out of waiting moves and must lose material. Best in this line is 5.Nc3!? bxc3 6.bxc3, which just leaves Black with a serious positional advantage and an extra pawn.[46] Other moves lose material in more obvious ways.However, since Black would win even without the zugzwang,[47] it is debatable whether the position is true zugzwang. Even if White could pass his move he would still lose, albeit more slowly, after 1...R5f3 2.Bxf3 Rxf3, trapping the queen and thus winning queen and bishop for two rooks.> The article suggests that the final position of Podgaets vs M Dvoretsky, 1974 
click for larger viewand Steinitz vs Lasker, 1896 after 34....Rg8 
click for larger vieware purer examples of middlegame zugzwang than this one. Whatever. It's still a cool game (though overrated in my opinion). I looked back through the kibitzing and saw that I argued, excessively rudely, with <Once> about it. Sorry, <Once>. |
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| Apr-30-17 | | JimNorCal: OK, <kp> and <kereru>, the threat to play R5f3 and get Q, B, 2Ps for 2R and Kt is a fair argument. Also the Winter history article is fascinating. So many of the Winter links fail, I hadn't even bothered to click through. |
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Apr-30-17
| | ChessHigherCat: <JimNorCal:> I'm with you. If you define Zugzwang as being forced to make a move that gives you an inferior position or loses a few points, then someday, when the computers have figured out how to win every game with white from move 1, white will start each game with d4 and announce ZUGZWANG! |
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Feb-26-18
 | | Big Pawn: Nimzovich was so creative, such as this game shows. What a genius. |
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| Aug-28-18 | | belladonne: hello everyboby!! can someone explain me why 9...cxd5 is better than 9...exd5??. Because it seems to me that in the second choice, black structure is more dynamic? |
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| Aug-28-18 | | Olavi: 9...exd5 10.e4 increases the power of Bg2 significantly, whether Black allows exd5 cxd5 or a weakness on c6, e.g. 10...dxe4 11.Nxe4 Nd5!? and probably 12.Nc3. So 9...cxd5 takes control of e4. White would have been better off with 9.e4 with similar ideas, except after the well known and good gambit 9...dxc4 10.Nxc4 Ba6 11.b3 b5 12.Ne3 b4 13.Ne2 Bxe2 14.Qxe2 Qxd4 15.Bb2. That, in turn, explains why 8...c6 has been replaced by (mostly) 8...Na6. |
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| Aug-29-18 | | belladonne: <Olavi> Thanks for your explanations. It will be more obvious for me now. |
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| Aug-29-18 | | JimNorCal: <CHC>: "someday, when the computers have figured out how to win every game with white from move 1, white will start each game with d4 and announce ZUGZWANG!" Good observation! Though you have a slight typo, should be "e4" not d4 LOL. |
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| Aug-29-18 | | RookFile: This game is an example of excellent marketing by Nimzo. Take a look at the position after 12 moves. White has a development lead, dominates the e5 square, and black has a lame bishop on b7. After Nimzo's 12....Nc6 white has a chance to cash in on these advantages with 13. Nxd5! but lets it pass. That's just the sort of move somebody like Alekhine would not have failed to play against him. |
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| Feb-20-19 | | Patzer Natmas: I'm a fan of Nimzo and was trying to make sure I didn't have a bias in my statement. Nimzo does mention "eventually throw himself upon the sword". 26. a3 a5 (keeping zugzwang)
26. g4 R5f3 27. Qxf2 Rxf2 (not a GM so I can't see all the variations but it looks like black would have the advantage). Also, since the game ends here (move 25), we can conclude that Saemisch saw his defeat was inevitable. |
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Feb-20-19
 | | Sally Simpson: ***
Bit of a marmite game this one. You either love it or think it's overrated. As kereru posted 4 years ago the game was ignored till Nimzo went on a "...propaganda blitz. He burst into annotational song..." http://www.chesshistory.com/winter/... Tartakower and Du Mont left it out of their 500 games. Winter mentions Tartakower liking Morphy's 33.b3 
click for larger viewin Morphy vs Loewenthal, 1858 as an example of Zugzwang. Personally it's a good game with that bit of humour added 25...h6 and Saemisch did the right thing by resigning to preserve the position for posterity. *** |
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| May-02-19 | | N.O.F. NAJDORF: 'Black can now make waiting moves with his King, and White must, willy-nilly, eventually throw himself upon the sword.' I don't get this.
Both players can now make waiting moves with his King, in which case the game will end in a draw. Surely, black has to play Rf3 and then wins. |
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May-02-19
 | | beatgiant: <N.O.F. NAJDORF> <Both players can now make waiting moves with his King> If White plays Kh2, his only king move, it leaves the bishop on g2 pinned and that allows Black to win by replying ...Rf3. <Surely, black has to play Rf3 and then wins.> On the immediate ...Rf3, White has Bxf3. |
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| Aug-15-21 | | MightyTal: Why resigning? Why not giving back a piece for a pawn, say Nc3?! |
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| Apr-13-22 | | N0B0DY: Don't sacrifice yourself too much, because if you sacrifice too much there's nothing else you can give and <N0B0DY> will care for you. |
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sac: 20...fxe4