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Dec-05-14
 | | maxi: There are several moves in this game that are so weak it is hard to believe that Petrosian is playing the Black pieces. So, <Petrosianic>, what is your explanation? |
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| Dec-05-14 | | Petrosianic: Which moves do you mean? There are a couple of weak moves here, but none that seem to defy explanation. Game Collections (which contain only a player's best games), give a lopsided view of the ups and downs that even top GM's have. For example, take this game:
Keres vs Fischer, 1959
This is a really AWFUL game for Keres. I winced the first time I saw it and I was only rated about 1400 at the time. I've never stopped wincing at it, really. It's so ugly. But I don't think Keres was in awe of Fischer at the time, a) because Fischer was still a largely unproven kid, and b) Keres had beaten Fischer only a week or so earlier. This is just one of those really bad games (much worse than this Tal-Petrosian game) that top GM's sometimes have. |
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| Dec-05-14 | | Petrosianic: The move that really finishes Keres off is 24. Bb5??, of course, but the whole game was ugly, the way he just goes pawn hunting, ignores development, lets his King get stuck in the center, et cetera. Bb5 doesn't come out of the blue, the whole game seems to be building up to it. Blech! |
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Dec-05-14
 | | keypusher: <Petrosianic: Which moves do you mean? There are a couple of weak moves here, but none that seem to defy explanation. Game Collections (which contain only a player's best games), give a lopsided view of the ups and downs that even top GM's have.> Amen. Horrible games by great players would be an interesting collection. Some nominees: H Caro vs Lasker, 1890
Capablanca vs Verlinsky, 1925
Keres vs Alekhine, 1937
Botvinnik vs Kotov, 1946
Tal vs L Shamkovich, 1971
Petrosian vs Fischer, 1971 |
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| Dec-05-14 | | RookFile: Bb5 from the Keres - Fischer game is awful, of course. Anybody can make a blunder. That's the only real problem I have with this game. The earlier part was an experiment by Keres - he knew that Fischer like to be ahead in material, and wanted to see how he's play a pawn down, but with comp. If he had just played Bf3 and and made a draw we wouldn't even be talking about this game. |
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| Dec-05-14 | | Petrosianic: <keypusher>: <Amen. Horrible games by great players would be an interesting collection.> One thing I should add is that Keres played this horrifically ugly game right in the middle of what chessmetrics calls the greatest tournament of his life. I think The Book of Chess Lists has some nominees for the worst games of the best players. I'd have to check the book to remember what they all were, but I do remember this one: H Caro vs Lasker, 1890 |
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| Dec-05-14 | | Petrosianic: You want to see Petrosian's worst game, I'd nominate this one. It was a severe case of stagefright in his first game in his first Soviet Championship. It's a terrible sight to behold. Wear sunglasses for this. Kotov vs Petrosian, 1949 |
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| Dec-05-14 | | Petrosianic: <keypusher> <Capablanca vs Verlinsky, 1925> That one's pretty bad, but here are a couple that feature incomprehensible blunders. I don't know if that makes them worse overall, but see what you think: Capablanca vs Tarrasch, 1914
Saemisch vs Capablanca, 1929 |
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| Dec-05-14 | | MarkFinan: I don't think this is too bad. Black messes up the endgame but you don't really see games like this at the top level anymore. |
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Dec-05-14
| | maxi: Game Kotov vs Petrosian, 1949 is very interesting. The master of defense does not defend. I guess we are all human, after all. |
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| Dec-05-14 | | Petrosianic: <but I do remember this one:> Sorry, I didn't look at your list closely enough. You'd already mentioned that one. |
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| Dec-09-14 | | drunknite: another crucial move seems to be black's 38th. where he needs to get the b and d pawns into position in order to create a passed a-pawn. It will take a few moves for black, but it will also take 4 moves for white K to capture the f4 pawn. if you look at white's 34th move; it does not take the K any closer to the f4 pawn. He is still 4 moves away, so 34 Kd4 is more of waiting move. so black would be better I think with 34...Kh8 so he is closer to the h pawn so he can take it if whites B goes after the e6 pawn. I think 34..Bh4 is also another interesting plan. |
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| Feb-01-16 | | jerseybob: <Petrosianic:....For example, take this game: Keres vs Fischer, 1959
This is a really AWFUL game for Keres. ...But I don't think Keres was in awe of Fischer at the time, a) because Fischer was still a largely unproven kid, and b) Keres had beaten Fischer only a week or so earlier.>
Let's put things in their proper order. You wouldn't know it from the way the Fischer-Keres games are listed here, but the first meeting between these two was at Zurich '59, before the Candidates. Fischer won that game and tied Keres for 3rd & 4th. Keres was fully aware from that point on just how good Fischer was. |
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| Jul-11-18 | | Inocencio: Tal is not only a master of attack, he is an accomplished end game guru as well! |
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| Jul-11-18 | | morfishine: <Inocencio: Tal is not only a master of attack, he is an accomplished end game guru as well!> Tal was a disciplined and committed worker on all phases |
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| Mar-10-21 | | Whitehat1963: Tal seems incapable of winning in quiet ways as Petrosian so often does. For that reason, I love his games. |
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Mar-10-21
 | | perfidious: <Whitehat1963: Tal seems incapable of winning in quiet ways as Petrosian so often does....> There were exceptions to that rule: see Smyslov vs Tal, 1964 for a game the winner considered one of his best. |
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| Mar-10-21 | | Whitehat1963: <Perfidious>, great exception! How about a Petrosian game with loud pyrotechnics? |
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| Mar-10-21 | | Z truth 000000011: Try this game:
Petrosian vs Kopelevic, 1942 White to move after 21...Nf6-e1
click for larger view |
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Mar-10-21
| | perfidious: Must say this youthful effort by Petrosian was unfamiliar. There was a top player who once wrote that it was to Petrosian's advantage that his opponents never knew he would begin to play like Tal. |
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| Mar-10-21 | | Z legend 000000001: Here's another from a few years later:
Petrosian vs Chukaev, 1951 White to move after 18...Nc6-d8
click for larger view(Yes, 19.hxg6 is very strong, but White has even better, as Petrosian played) I guess the lesson of the two games is not to move your knight back to the back rank against Petrosian! |
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| Mar-10-21 | | Whitehat1963: Another excellent game! Not quite pyrotechnics like we often see from Tal, but more fireworks than we’re used to getting from Petrosian. |
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Oct-04-21
 | | kingscrusher: <Petrosianic> Well said! :) |
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Oct-04-21
| | kingscrusher: <Petrosianic> I mean in particular you wrote: "What sahmatter means by boring is "hard to understand". There are some great players that not only play great chess but <clear> chess. Fischer and Capablanca were great, but in a way that even beginning players can understand their moves and learn from them. Petrosian is different. His games feature a lot of complex maneuvering, long range plans, and moves that defend against future threats that don't yet exist. While a 1400 player can learn from a good Capablanca, you really have to be rated over 2000 to really appreciate Petrosian. I remember when I was about 1400, trying to play over petrosian's first victory over Spassky (in 1960). The game was unnanotated, and I didn't have a clue about what was going on or why for most of the game. Couldn't make heads or tails of it, it was just totally over my head. Not knowing what's going on does make a game more boring, so I interpreted sahmatter's comoment to be a tacit admission that he's just not a very good player." |
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| Sep-16-23 | | Saniyat24: The King and Queen meet again, and Petro has no mileage left...! |
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