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Loek van Wely vs Jeroen Piket
Hoogovens Group A (1996), Wijk aan Zee NED, rd 3, Jan-16
English Opening: King's English. Four Knights Variation Quiet Line (A28)  ·  0-1



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sac: 25...Nd4 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Aug-17-08  DarthStapler: I didn't get it
Premium Chessgames Member
  Bobsterman3000: Van Wely playing a 2570? Nowadays he only gets invited to tournaments with average elo of 2760+
Aug-17-08  Woody Wood Pusher: Best way to guard against 'wasting time' on incorrect puzzles is to do what I do and only spend a maximum of 10 minutes on the puzzle and then feed it to the computer if no solution emerges.

My chess computer has no concept of wasted time so didn't mind one bit when I pulled this position after 40 mins analysis! lol

Aug-18-08  Jason Frost: He was 2570 as well back then
Aug-18-08  InspiredByMorphy: <Slurpeeman> I too thought 25. ...Rh6 was the answer, overlooking 26.Rg1
Aug-18-08  InspiredByMorphy: 26.Bxd4 would have kept white in the game, but 25. ...Nd4 still produces a positional advantage . The position after 26.Bxd4 Rh6 27.Rg1 exd4 28.Qc5

click for larger view

Blacks pieces have more mobility and the king is safe.

Aug-18-08  kevin86: The bishop at e2 is a massive flaw in white's game and eventually prevents his escape from the mating web of rooks and knight.

A brilliant queen sac-the lines needed to be open!

Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <pinnedpiece> Yes, I know about spoilers. No, I don't think that this puzzle was a spoiler. As far as I can tell, this was not an unsound combination that we were meant to spot. The winning move seems to be sound in all variations. Unless you have spotted something that everyone else has missed ...

The problem was that the puzzle position changed during the day, with the effect that some of us were commenting on one position and some of us were talking about another. Cue confusion and frustration.

But, hey, we're all human and that means we makes mistakes from time to time. By pointing it out in the comments, we hopefully helped CG to spot it and put it right later in the day.

That emphatically does not mean that we are being critical of, that <lost in space> doesn't think that this is a good site, or that I need to have the guidance notes repeated back to me.

It's over. Finis. Time to move on.

Aug-18-08  Jason Frost: <Once> I think the problem is more that the original puzzle, with absolute best play, probably lead to a draw and not a win.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <Jason Frost> I don't know about absolute best play, but Fritz 11 reckons that the position after 25. Nd4 is worth about -1.2. And that is normally enough to win in a position where white cannot easily erect a fortress. See my post above for one line which looks promising for black.
Aug-18-08  Jason Frost: <Once> Not acording to my analysis 14 posts above. 28. Qc4? dosn't make much sense 28. Qc5 is better, after which I am still of the openion that white holds.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <Jason Frost> This could go on for some time ....!

I think we may need to agree to disagree on this one. This position is way beyond my ability to calculate as both white and black have so many choices. That's when I rely on silicon assistance.

Fritz 11 deviates from your line immediately with: 26. Bxd4 Rh6 27. Rg1 exd4 28. Qc5 Rh4 29. f4 Qh3 30. Rg2 dxe3 31. fxe3 g6

click for larger view

Black is going to win either the e3 or f4 pawn. Can white hold this? I doubt it - a pawn is a pawn, after all. But the difficulty with these long lines is that most of the moves are unforced so the whole lot is difficult to analyse.

Sep-24-11  depraved: <Once> The position you gave in the diagram is interesting, and I think White is in very bad shape. He should end up a pawn down with weaknesses and a feeble bishop to boot against active Black pieces.
Mar-18-19  SpiritedReposte: Clever mating net.
Premium Chessgames Member
  fiercebadger: Rook magic ,like mayflies they rise into the air and dance for a day!
May-21-23  jrredfield: I chose 25 ... Nd4 26 Bxd4 (not exd4 since White must defend the crucial f4 square to prevent Nf4 or Qf4) ... Rh6 27 Rg1 exd4. I figured by that point that Black had a formation that White would have trouble defending against although the overall path to victory eludes me. Looks like it would take many more moves for Black to capitalize on its superior position.
May-21-23  mel gibson: There seemed to be so many choices -
I didn't see that line.

Stockfish 15 says:

25... Nd4

(25. .. Nd4 (Nc6-d4 Bb2xd4 Rd6-h6 Rd1-g1 e5xd4 Qc2-b2 Nd5-c3 Rc1xc3 Qf5-h3 Rg1-g2 d4xc3 Qb2xc3 Rh6-g6 Rg2xg6 h7xg6 d3-d4 Rd8-c8 Kh1-g1 c7-c6 b5xc6 Rc8xc6 Qc3-b2 Qh3-f5 Be2-d1 Rc6-c8 Kg1-g2 b7-b5 Kg2-f1 Rc8-b8 Qb2-b4 Rb8-a8 Qb4-b2 Qf5-h3+ Kf1-e2 Qh3xh2 Bd1-b3 Qh2-h1 Qb2-c2 Ra8-a1 f3-f4 Ra1-b1 d4-d5 Qh1-f1+ Ke2-f3 Rb1-e1 Kf3-e4 Re1-c1 Qc2-d2 Rc1-c8 Qd2-a2 Rc8-c3 Ke4-e5 Qf1-d3 Qa2-a8+ Kg8-h7 Bb3-a2 Qd3-f1 Qa8-d8 Qf1xf2) +3.95/44 341)

score for Black +3.95 depth 44.

May-21-23  Brenin: Like <jrredfield> I chose 25 ... Nd4, expecting 26 Bxd4 to be the best response, rather than 26 exd4 as in the game, allowing Black access to f4. It is still good for Black, for example 26 ... Rh6 27 Rg1 exd4 28 Qd2 Nc3, winning the b pawn.
Premium Chessgames Member
  An Englishman: Good Evening: Already knew this, which came as a surprise; unlike 2008, "solved" this one but of course it doesn't count. Can't complain; 6/6 for the week.
May-21-23  Refused: Missed this one.

I saw the theme of Rh6-Rdd6 sacking on the h-file to deliver checkmate, but I couldn't make it work, without the insertion of Nd4 (and Nf4!!, which is the point of Nd4 in the first place).

Premium Chessgames Member
  scormus: I found the text sequence easy enough until 29 ... when I took too little time to think before rejecting ... Qxh4+! instead choosing ... f5 which I'm sure also wins, possibly with the same coup de grace.

Like others who posted already, I was uncertain how well it would go after 26 Bxd4, denying ... Nf4. W's reply mistake it easier for B to force the win.

Interestingly, the tempting 26 ... Qh3 does not seem so strong. W might be able to defend with 27 Rg1 followed by Rg2, Rcg1 and Qf1

Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: Standard motif in Sicilian middlegames with a twist; one normally sees this with colours reversed and the followup, after Nd5, of Nf5 usually played straight away. In this case, Piket's intermezzo ....Rh6 is far more effective and spells defeat for White.
Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: I jolt dm it is honey cg it is whiff up visor q ez it is Nd4 gag abattoir bla v aha arrive it is grog Nd4 blubb;
May-21-23  King.Arthur.Brazil: I though on the line: 25...Nd4 26. exd4 Nf4 27. dxe5 Rh6 28. Rg1 Qh3. Maybe, 27. Rg1 Rh6 28. Rg3 Qh5 29. h3 Nxh3 30. Kg2 Nf4+ 31. Kf1 Qh1+ 32. Rg1 Qh2 33. dxe5 Nh3 34. Rg2 Qh1+, etc.
May-21-23  agb2002: Black has both knights for the bishop pair.

White threatens bxc6 and e4.

The weak white castle invites to play 25... Rh6 but White seems to hold after 26.Rg1 to protect h2.

The alternative 25... Ncb4 allows 26.Qc4 followed by Qg4 and the attack seems to vanish.

The retreat 25... Nce7 is too passive.

A better option is 25... Nd4:

A) 26.exd4 Rh6 27.Rg1 Nf4, with the threat Rxh2.

B) 26.Bxd4 Rh6 (26... exd4 27.e4)

B.1) 27.Bb2 Qh5 28.Bxe5 Qxe5 29.f4 Nxf4 should be winning (30.exf4 Qxf4).

B.2) 27.Bxe5 Qxe5 is similar to B.1.

C) 26.Qd2 Nxf3 must be winning (27.e4 Qh3 28.Bxf3 Qxf3+ 29.Kg1 Nf4).

D) 26.e4 Qh5 27.Bxd4 Rh6 28.Bxe5 Qxe5 as above.

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