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Susan Polgar vs Jon Arnason
7th ECC quarterfinal (1989), Budapest HUN, Nov-??
Indian Game: Yusupov-Rubinstein System (A46)  ·  0-1



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sac: 27...Rxc3 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jul-28-08  zb2cr: Wow, this took me a long time for a Monday puzzle. I was trying 28. ... exf2+ but I saw that after 29. Kxf2, Ne4+; 30. Rxe4, Rxe4 Black has simply regained the exchange down that he started the position.

After over 2 minutes of head-scratching, I found the idea of 28. ... Ne4.

Among other things, I completely missed the idea of following up the Pawn exchange with 30. ... Qb6+, as pointed out by <dzechiel>, which will leave Black up by 2 pieces for a Rook.

This could be the start of a bad week.

Jul-28-08  sexymichelle7: I solved this chess puzzle in 30seconds...Not bad for a Beverly Hill`s blonde:)
Jul-28-08  johnlspouge: Monday (Very Easy): Black to play and win.

Material: Down N for R. The Black Pe6 has an obvious capture exf7+, discovering an attack by Re8 on Re1. The capture will further weaken the K-side dark squares and expose Kg8. Immediate capture leads a fork and win of Bd6, but the question is whether there is a better move.

Candidates (28…): exf2+, Ne4

28…exf2+ 29.Kxf2 Qb6+ 30.Bc5 [else, drop a B] Qxc5+ Qxc5 31.Nxc5

and Black has won a B. There is a better move, however.

28…Ne4 (threatening 29…Nxc3 and 29…exf7+ 30…fxe8=Q+ 31…Nxd6)

29.Qc7 [else, drop Bd6 with a R] exf7+ 30.K moves fxe8=Q

and Black has won a R.

Jul-28-08  zanshin: After seeing the Monday puzzle, I predict this will be a bad week for me ;-)
Jul-28-08  vijaymathslpjz: the first time im solving a puzzle on this site.figured out in abt 20 seconds.this was very easy as it says.
Jul-28-08  zooter: <vijaymathslpjz: the first time im solving a puzzle on this site.figured out in abt 20 seconds.this was very easy as it says>

Hang on for a week and then you'll not regret it...! ;)

What say our regular blitzers?

Jul-28-08  Geronimo: The question for me here isn't whether this was "mondayish" or not. The point is that like so many, I first looked into 28...exf2, before thinking "hmmm, for anything other than a fiendishly tough puzzle there should be a clear gain of material or crushing positional advantage." before looking at other lines and finding the game move.

This type of thought occurs within the hermeneutic of the "puzzle" and is not how we usually think over the board - because we're informed at the start that there's something to search for! The questing is therefore "why is 28...exf2 so seductive." What is it about having a pawn on the 6th rank, or the visibility of a one-move fork over a two-move tactic that gets us to stop looking further? (Who said, "when you've found a good move wait and look for a better one."?) In the sense that 28...Ne4 was obviously better but not necessarily the most intuitive, this was a great puzzle, monday or no.

Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: This was not the typical Monday puzzle-and I missed it because I had my syntax wrong.

My try was 28...exf2+ 29 ♔xf2 ♘e4+ 30 ♖xe4 ♖xe4....not the best

The correct move is to place the knight first:28...♘e4 attacking queen and bishop 29 ♕ moves exf2+ winning the rook and ending a piece in front.

Jul-28-08  zb2cr: Hi Geronimo:

You wrote: "(Who said, "when you've found a good move wait and look for a better one."?)"

I've heard that one attributed to Emmanuel Lasker.

Jul-28-08  Kasputin: Yikes. I had a feeling that I was missing something here. I thought about the knight moving to e4 at some point but only after the 28 ...exf2+ sequence. I have no explanation why I didn't think of ...Ne4 as a possible first move. Even after looking at 28 ...exf2+ I still had the feeling that there was more here.

Anyway for the record (my own record that is), here are my thoughts prior to looking at the solution:

"White is ahead in material (rook for a knight). After looking at this for a short while, the best move that I see is:

28 ...exf2+
29. Kxf2
really no other choice unless white wants to lose his e1 rook and give black a new queen.

29. ...Qb6+
Now white will lose the d6 bishop if it remains on that square (i.e., if the white king moves to escape check, or if white blocks the check with the f3 knight or with the queen). If white plays 30. Bc5 then black can either simplify by playing 30. ...Qxc5+ or take the bishop with the d7 knight (in the latter case the f6 knight is now protected from capture by the black queen). Either way the white bishop is lost. It might be easier (and safer) to simplify by trading queens if white moves the bishop to c5. On the other hand keeping the black queen on the board looks very menancing - white has to be careful to avoid dangerous knight forks (i.e., at e4) plus his king looks in danger if the black queen stays on the board, especially since black has a dark squared bishop while white loses his.

The loss of the bishop puts black ahead in terms of material but also losing that bishop really looks like it puts a halt to any serious tactical threats that white might have been able to muster. Still I can't help but feel that perhaps there is more here that I simply missed."

Jul-28-08  Kasputin: Hi <Geronimo>. Very well put. I agree with all that you say, so the following is not really a contradiction but more an elaboration of how my thinking can sometimes get really weird.

I am 90% certain that in a real game I would have played the ...exf2+, but ironically there is the possibility that I would have played ...Ne4 instead in a real OTB situation. Why? Well partly because of the "look for a better move" maxim, but more importantly (for me anyway) because I mistakenly convinced myself that ...exf2+ was the only first move. I convinced myself precisely because this was a puzzle. My "feeling" that there might be something more was a feeling that there was a better follow-up after ...exf2+ not a feeling that there was a different first move to consider.

What I should have done (always easier to see afterward btw) was to trust myself that I had seen all that was important in the ...exf2 sequence (therefore dispelling the "something more" feeling) and then looked at other first moves.

Depending on a variety of factors, knowing these are puzzles can be either a help or a hindrance in actually solving them - certainly in the majority of cases it helps but not always.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: The toughest monday puzzle ever?

The "obvious" exf2 fails - a great antidote to all those "spotted it in an instant" posts we get on Saturdays and Sundays.

Interestingly, this was probably harder to spot as a puzzle than it would have been OTB. Black's two previous moves (26. ... e3 and 27. ... Rxc3) were clearly made to facilitate 28. ... Ne4 by getting rid of both white knights which were defending e4.

This means that black was following a short-term planned aimed at playing Ne4. By contrast, we get the position cold. I must confess that I spent rather too much time trying to make exf2 work, before looking for a better move because a Monday must be a one or two mover. Once you see Ne4, it all falls into place.

Great puzzle.

Jul-28-08  clampolo: <Whatever you say grandmaster.... > Terry, it is best to just solve the puzzle and completely ignore the kibitzing section. It's dominated by guys like dzechiel telling people their thoughts when solving the puzzle - as if anyone cares. Or crap like "I solved it in 30s!!!!". Maybe once a month you'll see something interesting.
Jul-28-08  Samagonka: I'm glad I'm not the only one who screwed this, it was really difficult for a Monday but I don't blame anyone. Something different from the other Mondays sets the base for improvement.
Jul-28-08  IraGraves: <clampolo> You are sooo damn right.
Jul-28-08  SetNoEscapeOn: <clampolo>


Jul-28-08  TheaN: <clampolo>

Although your intention of the post seems to be trolling I'd still like to react (especially because two people blindly agreed to it).

I agree with you with the solving time and the 'not telling anything new posts' like 'I solved in 41312ms'. Useless, just leave them, as the CG community doesn't really care whether someone actually solved it or not if they have nothing new to add. The only time I make such a post is when I did NOT make a puzzle and show a wrong continuation (which might be nice to analyse).

Your first part of the post is completely different however, and solely based on opinion: <It's dominated by guys like dzechiel telling people their thoughts when solving the puzzle - as if anyone cares.>... maybe you should care. Posts like his (and others, mine probably too), but also MAJ's (who analyses the puzzle with a computer) can bring up completely new lines in a puzzle you might not have seen. And no, that doesn't happen only once a month but a lot more, you're probably looking too few times to notice anything new. And if you don't care, then don't fish out replies like Terry posted and comment on it either, as it leads to nothing good.

Jul-28-08  johnlspouge: <clampolo>, you have the option of editing the preferences on your user profile to exclude posts from specific people, if you want. My preferences include <dzechiel> as a favorite, for example.
Jul-28-08  MostlyAverageJoe: <Once: The toughest monday puzzle ever? > I plugged it into my evaluator, and it scored at "easy Wednesday" level, so yes, it does seem to be up there near the top of what we're used to see on Mondays. There were just a couple of Mondays that scored higher on the difficulty level, e.g.:

Black to move, <12...?> (H Bohm vs R Hernandez, 1979):

click for larger view

White to move, <32.?> (Capablanca vs B H Villegas, 1914):

click for larger view

Jul-28-08  ILikeFruits: hello...
i am new here...
dont hate please...
Premium Chessgames Member
  keypusher: <I like fruits>

<fruits are healthy...
eat them please...
bananas in pajamas...>

apples in dungarees

Jul-28-08  JG27Pyth: <clampolo: It's dominated by guys like dzechiel telling people their thoughts when solving the puzzle - as if anyone cares.>

I care. I greatly enjoy Dzechiel's posts (and his alterego JohnLspouge ;) and MAJ's and TerryMcCracken's and all the other regular's posts. I don't go thru every variation every day but I've learned a great deal about chess here.

But it's certainly understandable that these long detailed discussions of complicated chess positions bore you... I think most people, most by far, agree with you.. Long discussions of chess? Snooz-o-rama -- why my own family finds the whole topic unbearably tedious and shout at me to shut up if I so much as mention chess... but the thing is, these sensible people completely avoid chess forums. It's as though they know that they'll find chess discussed here, and they stay away. Imagine.

One wonders what, exactly, you've been hoping to find.

Jul-28-08  zenpharaohs: JG27Pyth: "It's as though they know that they'll find chess discussed here, and they stay away."

I'm shocked. Shocked to find that there is chess discussion going on here.

Jul-28-08  Longbrow: Regarding kibitzing: It’s easier than a Monday puzzle and FREE! Just take what you need/want; leave what you don't.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: Like chess games, like life, the kibitzing on this site is hugely variable. Some comments are incredibly useful, entertaining, provocative. There is sense of community here, with many of the regulars happy to answer questions and help others out.

At the other end of the scale, we have kibitzing that does not add much to the sum of human knowledge - even bordering on the offensive.

By the same token, there is huge variability in the way that we use the site. Some dip in for a quick workout on the puzzles and little more. Others devote hours to the site and delve deeply into the variations offered by others.

Whatever. As <longbow> says, take what you need, leave what you don't and respect the fact that others may have different opinions from you.

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