< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Jun-30-11|| ||abuzic: <5. Bxf7+> 5. Nxf7 also keeps white's superiority, with open choices. One interesting continuation line:
5. Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6. Kxf2 Nxe4+ 7. Kg1 Qh4 8. g3 Nxg3 9. Nxh8 Nxh1 10. d3 d5 11. Bxd5 Qd4+ 12. Be3 Qxe3+ 13. Kxh1 Bh6.....would be an open game.|
|Jun-30-11|| ||cormier: Wall - D. Hayes, Dayton 1980
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 Nf6 5.Nc3 O-O 6.O-O d6 7.Be3 Bxe3 8.fxe3 Qe7 9.h3 h6 10.a3 Be6 11.Bb5 Bd7 12.Nd5 Nxd5 13.exd5 Na5 (13...Nd8) 14.Bxd7 Qxd7 15.b4 1-0
|Jun-30-11|| ||psmith: <cormier> Relevance of that game to this one? Some explanation?|
|Jun-30-11|| ||abuzic: Variation with N sac:
Christophe Van de Loo vs M Hesseling, C Van de Loo vs M Hesseling, 1983
J Reinisch vs Karel Traxler, J Reinisch vs Traxler, 1890
Variation (4...d5) with Fischer playing white:
Robert James Fischer vs Robert Eugene Burger, Fischer vs R Burger, 1963
|Jun-30-11|| ||sfm: <psmith: [cormier] Relevance of that game to this one? Some explanation?>|
Easy. The first two moves by Black were exactly the same!
|Jun-30-11|| ||sfm: If my memory does not fail me: opening-db statistics are against 4.Ng5, unless Black plays the good old mistake -,d5 5.exd,Nxd5?|
|Jun-30-11|| ||kevin86: Black attacked while white slept.|
|Jun-30-11|| ||coachjay: Abuzic - Thanks for those references! Great variations to know. Great games to review.|
|Jun-30-11|| ||DrMAL: Dubious opening but against Shirov it seems suicidal.|
|Jun-30-11|| ||FSR: <sfm> That's basically right. The rare lines 4.Ng5 Nxe4?! and 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 also do badly for Black, but Black gets a plus score in all the main lines. See Opening Explorer, Opening Explorer, and Opening Explorer.|
|Jun-30-11|| ||erniecohen: <abuzic: <5. Bxf7+> 5. Nxf7 also keeps white's superiority, with open choices. One interesting continuation line: 5. ♘xf7 ♗xf2+ 6. ♔xf2 ...>|
6. ♔xf2 is the move that often leads to the annihilation that <FSR> speaks of; 6. ♔f1 is the usual move.
|Jun-30-11|| ||Akavall: I think the Traxler is quite playable. Here is a game where Anand went down to it.|
Anand vs Beliavsky, 1991
|Jun-30-11|| ||DarthStapler: Shirov plays my favorite opening, awesome!|
|Jun-30-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Thank you <FSR> for a very succinct post. (I have nothing to add to that.)|
|Jun-30-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: <FSR> Your first post ... well, it hit the nail right on its proverbial head. |
I would only add that I have dozens of books on these lines. AND that after 5.NxP/f7, White is more apt to lose or draw (according to the stats of the DB) then he is to win.
|Jun-30-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: When I speak of the DB - I am NOT talking about the one here. Usually I am referring to either A.) The on-line CB database, with a gazillion games, or B.) My own DB, (Bought in 2008, but updated weekly by TWIC.); which I literally use on a daily basis. (Analysis, stats, etc.)|
|Jun-30-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: This game is the main line of MCO-15.
(Page # 35, column # 11.)
Schlesing - Domsgen,Steffen [C57]
Corres. DDR; 1989
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Nf3 Nd4 8.Nxd4 Bxd4 9.0-0 c6 10.c3 Bb6 11.Bb3 Qe8 12.Re1 Qg6 13.d4 d6 14.f3 Bh3 15.Re2 Nxe4 16.Bc2 d5 17.fxe4 Bg4 18.exd5 Qh5 19.Bd3 Kd6 20.b3 Rf6 21.Ba3+ Kd7 22.dxc6+ bxc6 23.Nd2 Re8 24.Nc4 exd4 25.Nxb6+ axb6 26.Ba6?
[¹ Better was: 26.Bf5+ Rxf5 27.Qxd4+ Kc8 (27...Rd5 28.Qxg7+) 28.Rxe8+ Qxe8 29.Qxg4 ]
26...Bxe2 27.Qxd4+ Kc7 28.Bxe2 Qxe2 29.h3 Re4 0-1
|Jun-30-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: We had another game (fairly recently) that was in this line. |
I know because someone said something like, "GM's don't play this line." And I responded by posting the Anand - Beliyavsky game, given in a kibitz above.
|Jun-30-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Schlesing vs Domsgen, 1989|
I should have known that this game would be on this DB!!! (About 5 years ago, I would search for a key game, and it would be missing. That's not true today.)
My deep and sincere thanks - to everyone - who posted one of these games, ESPECIALLY those hard to find correspondence games!!!!!!!!!!!
|Jun-30-11|| ||cormier: B: 6.Bb3
click for larger view
Analysis by Fritz 12: dpa 21
1. (0.94): 6...Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Nc3 h6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.Nb5 Kd8 11.Be3 Nd4 12.Nbxd4 exd4 13.Bd2 d5 14.e5
2. (1.35): 6...Rf8 7.Nc3 d6 8.0-0 Nd4 9.Nd5+ Nxd5 10.exd5 h6 11.Ne4 Kf7 12.Re1 Kg8 13.Nxc5 dxc5 14.c3 Nxb3 15.Qxb3 Qf6
|Jun-30-11|| ||WhiteRook48: throughly crushed... white played like a total novice here.|
|Jun-30-11|| ||erniecohen: <FSR, LIFE Master AJ} The statement by <FSR> that "with best play, the best white can get (from 5 ♘xf8) is a draw" is not, as far as I know, confirmed in any objective sense (i.e., you could probably make the same claim for Ruy Lopez). Statistics from databases of GM games are not very relevant to the analysis of complex positions (it's essentially the Emperor of China's Nose fallacy). As <LIFE Master AJ> points out, the main line grades to , and that's probably the right conclusion: with correct play, white has the winning chances, but there is no outright refutation. Of course OTB reality is a different matter; white's position certainly has proved more difficult to play.|
|Jun-30-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: <erniecohen> You make a valid point. |
I was just saying, that (in my experience); that the White side of these lines are next to impossible to play correctly.
You had better MEMORIZE the book, ALL of it!!! (If you can't do this, and you make one mistake in a tournament/serious game, then you are dead.) Fair enough?
|Jun-30-11|| ||BiteByBits: white played well until moves like h3?...which is responded by black's aggressive Qg6!, Rf1?...is white planning to play f4 next?...white's position was surprisingly weak...efimov got crushed in like 3 moves when shirov brought out the queen...|
|Jul-01-11|| ||LIFE Master AJ: Hmm. Wasn't pretty, that's for sure. (To lose with the White pieces in only 15 moves ...) |
Of course, Efimov can take comfort in the fact that he lost to a future chess super-star. (Alexey Shirov)
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