< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·
|Nov-23-07|| ||marcwordsmith: Would 23. Bf6 also have forced a win? If Black guards his back rank with his queen, White follows with Rb3. That wins too, doesn't it?|
|Nov-23-07|| ||Samagonka: I saw all the moves from 23 Qb8+ but I didn't realise the full effect of the bishop sacrifce, nor did it dawn on me that Qd8+ was the final blow! That's mainly because at the same time I was busy calculating how to defer mate on e1 from the lurking black rook.|
|Nov-23-07|| ||The beginner: <marcwordsmith>
23Bf6 dont quite do it.
After for example Qb7, or Qa8. White cant double on the b file with his rook, because after the rook leaves f3, Black has Qxg2 mate.
|Nov-23-07|| ||Peligroso Patzer: <marcwordsmith: Would 23. Bf6 also have forced a win? If Black guards his back rank with his queen, White follows with Rb3. That wins too, doesn't it?>|
Because of his own back-rank weakness, and also a weakness on g2, White could not play 24. ♖b3?? after 23.♗f6 ♕b7. That would leave Black with the choice between winning instantly with 24. ... ♕xg2# or dragging things out with 24. ... ♕xb3.
|Nov-23-07|| ||patzer2: In J Fichtl vs Jansa, 1970, Black played <RV>'s suggested 13...Nf6! improvement for an easy win.|
Perhaps this game might be a reason to prefer 9. a3 as in O'Kelly vs Tal, 1963 or 9. Bf3 as in M Panchanathan vs B Einarsson, 2006.
|Nov-23-07|| ||patzer2: <JimFromProvidence> <After 22... Qa8 ...what about 23 Qxh7!?. That move looks very strong.>|
After 22...Qa8 23. Qxh7 Ra1+!, Black wins (back rank mate).
|Nov-23-07|| ||zb2cr: Wow. I was feeling quite brilliant because I found a Friday puzzle in roughly 1 minute. Now I read all the dismissive comments about "too easy", "Wednesday puzzle", "Monday puzzle"--and I feel quite deflated. |
|Nov-23-07|| ||xrt999: < patzer2>
maybe the correct word is "drawish"? You already pointed out 22...Re2 is a blunder, and 22...Qa8 seems to be the only other option, with a draw-like feel to it.
|Nov-23-07|| ||road2nowhere: Easy once you are told there is a win as once Bf6 is discounted trying check is the next most obvious, but missable in real play because it includes a lot of "backward" elements...the queen covering d6, then the bishop check, and later the queen check...classic features in oversights.|
|Nov-23-07|| ||znprdx: <Dr. Funkenstein:> <zb2cr:> Frankly I'd prefer there was no gradation of difficulty given - it is a bit arbitrary anyway - and serves little puropose - maybe there'd less wasted comments such as "got it" :) The real joy is seeing how we approach solving - as well finding the spoiler|
|Nov-23-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <JimFromProvidence> <After 22... Qa8 ...what about 23 Qxh7!?. That move looks very strong.>
<Patzer2> <After 22...Qa8 23. Qxh7 Ra1+!, Black wins (back rank mate).>|
I had the h pawn set up at h3. No wonder that move looked so good.
|Nov-23-07|| ||dzechiel: <znprdx: Frankly I'd prefer there was no gradation of difficulty given - it is a bit arbitrary anyway>|
Chessgames seems to be following the tradition of other weekly puzzles such as crosswords or sudokus, where the Monday puzzle is the easiest and they grow more difficult as the week progresses.
I don't know how much it helps to see an "Easy" or "Difficult" rating on the puzzle, but I think it allows all levels of players to enjoy taking a crack at them.
|Nov-23-07|| ||natronic: What if on 23. Bg7 (threatens knight, must move) Nf6 24. Qb8+ Ke7 25. Qf8#|
Can anyone find a flaw in this line?
|Nov-23-07|| ||loftus: <natronic> I didn't see anyone else comment on this line yet, but after 23...e5 the black Queen is protecting her knight and the black King has a flight square. White could still try 24. Qb8+ but she'd better be persistent, since that move weakens White's back rank and sets up the Black rook to mate, as noted earlier.|
|Nov-23-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <Natronic> <What if on 23. Bg7 (threatens knight, must move) Nf6 24. Qb8+ Ke7 25. Qf8# |
Can anyone find a flaw in this line?>
<loftus> <I didn't see anyone else comment on this line yet, but after 23...e5 the black Queen is protecting her knight and the black King has a flight square. White could still try 24. Qb8+ but she'd better be persistent, since that move weakens White's back rank and sets up the Black rook to mate, as noted earlier.>
If 23… e5 then 24 Qb8+ Ke7 25 Qb4+ d6 27 Bxh6 wins a piece.
Black should play 23…Qb7!! That keeps the game even.
|Nov-23-07|| ||ConstantImprovement: Two possibilities came to my mind:
The rather quiet 23. Bf6, threatening mate, and the line starting with 23. Qb8+ Ke7 (forced) 24. Bf6+.
For some time I thought 23. Bf6 looked equally good, see:
After 23. ... d6(d5) 24. Qb8+ Kd7 25. Qd8#.
After 23. ... Qc8 24. Rb3, winning the queen.
But 23. ... Qa8! spoils it: White can not play 24. Rb3 due to 24. ... Qg2#.
So 23. Qb8+ Ke7 24. Bf6+ Kf6: (forced since the queen covers d6) 25. Qd8+.
Now there are three possible moves for Black:
1. 25. ... Kf5 26. Qg5+ Ke4 27. Qe5#
2. 25. ... Kg6 26. Qg5#
3. 25. ... Kg7 26. Rg3+ Ng4 (forced) 27. Rg4:+ Kh6 (forced) 28. Qh4#.
The puzzle is geometrically beautiful, but perhaps a slightly grateful Friday puzzle.
|Nov-23-07|| ||patzer2: <JimFromProvidence> After 23. Bg7!? your suggested 23...Qb7! is an impressive saving defense (stopping the Queen's mate threat option & creating a mate threat for Black with a tempo to save the Knight). Neat!|
Now after the possibility 23. Bg7 Qb7!, what is White's best move? My computer says here 24. Qg1 is the only move to keep it even, but why?
|Nov-23-07|| ||jperr75108: Quite an easy problem, especially because the first move is quite easy to see. After that, whites mating pattern plays itself.|
|Nov-23-07|| ||aazqua: Seems like b-f6 followed by rb3 should work.|
|Nov-23-07|| ||Richard Taylor: <PositionalTactician: The best line against the Taimanov is in my humble opinion 5.Nb5 d6 6.Bf4 e5 7.Be3. Fischer backs me up. This is his favourite way to play this position :).> I agre but thsiis called The Paulsen and that points to one problem with the Taimanov and variations that can tarnspose (as well as the variants such as the Kan Opening and thsi Paulsen) to the Shevesnikov or Lasker- Pelikan is that they CAN transpose - I got caught in game (quite fast time control )by 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 e6 3 d4 cd 4 Nxd4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Nc6 6 Ndb5 d6 7 Bf4 e5 and instead of themove I had played in a diff. move order now 8 Bg5 I played 8 Bg3 (?) which I immediately realised was an error as then 8 .. a6 9 Na3 b5 10 Nd5 and I lost a pawn and eventually the game. |
It's good to keep playing an opening even if one loses against it - as in this way one learns the ideas and variations etc as I did from htat agme above. The loses and draws etc tend to even out over time and one can get a good knowledge of an opening - and also keep some alternatives to keep from going rusty. I would consider buying a book on each of the openings I play if I was that little bit more serious about chess...may even do so yet - that is - to update what I have got. Of course one can learn, say, the Kings Indian and then one is facing 1 d5 Nf6 2 Nc3 or 2 Bf4 but one can study those variants after learning the main ideas.
I play both the Nimzo and the KI (which I vary by playing the Benoni sometimes) as White I play 1 e4 and the Taimanov is a tough nut to crack but then so is the Dragon and the Najdorf. It's a good idea to study as many openings from both sides as one can - and even play them from both sides - to learn.
I solved this problem in a few seconds BTW!!
|Nov-23-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: Well, my son (rated at about 850 ELO) found the solution in about a minute, including variations, and this is is a definite proof that this puzzle was easier than normal Friday.|
This said, I have to say that most of the time CG does a very good job classifying the puzzle difficulty level. Occasional slip-ups are not a big deal.
It would be nice if CG allowed us to set user's preferences to display two diagrams: the real puzzle and another showing a drawish position. The goal would be to identify the puzzle first, and then solve it. This would get rid of the major cluse that makes some puzzles easy to solve: the knowledge that there IS a solution. More details about this idea can be found at the top of my user profile (MostlyAverageJoe chessforum), and also in the following two posts:
Anyone in favor of such an enhancement, please let CG know on their forum.
|Nov-23-07|| ||Jimfromprovidence: <patzer 2> <Now after the possibility 23. Bg7 Qb7!, what is White's best move? My computer says here 24. Qg1 is the only move to keep it even, but why?>|
It looks like that’s the only back rank move of the six possible that saves white’s isolated c pawn.
|Nov-23-07|| ||MostlyAverageJoe: <patzer2: <JimFromProvidence> After 23. Bg7!? your suggested 23...Qb7! is an impressive saving defense (stopping the Queen's mate threat option & creating a mate threat for Black with a tempo to save the Knight). Neat!
Now after the possibility 23. Bg7 Qb7!, what is White's best move? My computer says here 24. Qg1 is the only move to keep it even, but why?>|
Well, the white R is pinned by the threat of Qg2#, so white Q has to move elsewhere on the first rank. Black N can now come out via f5, threatening further advance to e3 or h4. Black can also intensify the attack with Qe4, threatening Re1. 24.Qg1 prevents most of the combinations arising from these ideas.
|Nov-23-07|| ||ongyj: Sorry to ask it again, but how about 22.Bg7 threatening to win the Knight or checkmate with Qb8-f8 ?|
|Apr-03-10|| ||vonKrolock: <22.♕b1> |
click for larger view
The black King's position suddenly looks periclitating, but the end should not be so quick, even if after 22..♖a8 23.♕xh7 ♘f5 24.♕g8+ ♔e7 25.♗f6+! ♔d6 26.♕xf7 ♕xc4 27.♗e5+ ♔c6 28.h3! etc white first horizontal is safe and the threats against the open black King position are again too strong, let alone the material advantage
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