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Ilkka J Saren vs Bent Larsen
Ribe 6 Nations chT (1973), DEN, rd 4, Aug-08
Spanish Game: Cozio Defense. General (C60)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Given 6 times; par: 44 [what's this?]

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sac: 31...Qxd1+ PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Apr-26-06  prinsallan: Excellent written Patzer2.
I did not find the followup, but I guessed that the first move was the Queensac.
Apr-26-06  dakgootje: < patzer2> Was it your intention to post the solution for your alternatively puzzle right above the puzzle? As, if in this case someone reads your whole post he sees the answer already to the puzzle you placed at the very bottom of your post...
Apr-26-06  patzer2: <dakgootje> Good observation! Yes, I intended to give the answer and then present the puzzle to clarify and reinforce the solution, especially for those new to solving Chess problems.
Apr-26-06  JustAFish: I thought 31. ... Nd2 looked like a nice move as well.
Apr-26-06  RandomVisitor: After 31...Qxd1!! 32. Qxd1 Nxe3 doesn't white have the simple Qxd8+? What am I missing?
Apr-26-06  euripides: <random, patzer> I think some of <patzer>'s lines are meant to start 31....Qxd1 32 Bxd1 e.g. <31...Qxd1!! 32. Qxd1 Nxe3! 33. Qb2> would be illegal as it stands.
Apr-26-06  Parriotblue: <patzer2> In the lines you have analysed White always played 34.Kf2. What about 34.Kh2? I think Black's win would be more difficult. Could you give us your opinion? Thank you.
Apr-26-06  RandomVisitor: <euripides>thanks...
Apr-26-06  jmw128: I got the solution, very clever I thought. Just too many good moves for Black regardless of White's 32 move.

But I absolutely don't understand the love of the Nxe3 move as after White plays 32. Qxd1. After the sequence, 31...Qxd1. 32.Qxd1 Nxe3???, why doesn't White just play 33.Qxd8+ and ruin your work? It seems a Queen advantage is sufficient regardless of the mess White's other pieces are in.

The only line where Nxe3 is viable is when 32.Bxd1. At that point, the game is over anyhow. Larsen's move or Nxe3 will lead to a material advantage for Black and thus win.

Apr-26-06  jmelton: <RandomVisitor: After 23.Nxe5 Qg5 24.Nf4 Nxg2 25.Nxg2 Bxh3 26.Rf2 Black has a nice attack>

Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks to me like White is okay in this line, and I couldn't find anything playing around with Fritz, either. So, for example:

26...Bxg2 27.Rxg2 Qxe3+ 28.Kh1 f6 29.Rag1 fxe5 30.Rxg7+ Kh8 31.Rg8+ Rxg8 32.Qxe5+ Kh7 33.Qf5+ and White has a perpetual.

23...Bxh3 looks like it wins, though. Here is the analysis:

B) 23...Bxh3

B1) 24.Nf4 Bxg2 25.Nxg2 Qg5 26.Rf2 f6 27.Nxc6 Nxg2

B1a) 28.Nxd8 Nxe3+ 29.Kh1 Qh5+ 30.Rh2 Qf3+ 31.Kg1 Qg3+ 32.Kh1 Ng4 33.Rg2 Qh3+ 34.Kg1 Rxd8 35.Rd2 B1a1) 35...Qg3+ 36.Kf1 (36.Rg2 Qe3+ 37.Kh1 Rxd3 ) 36...Nh2+ 37.Rxh2 Qxh2 ; B1a2) 35...Ne5 36.Rad1 Nf3+ 37.Kf2 Nxd2 38.Qxd2 Nd6 39.Qe2 Nf7 40.e5 Qh4+ 41.Kf1 Rd4 42.exf6 Rf4+ 43.Kg2 Qg5+ 44.Kh1 Rh4+ 45.Qh2 Rxh2+ 46.Kxh2 Qh5+ 47.Kg2 Qxd1 ;

B1b) 28.Rxg2 28...Qxe3+ 29.Kf1 Qf3+ 30.Rf2 Qxd3+ 31.Qxd3 Rxd3 32.e5 fxe5 33.bxa5 Nxa5 34.Nxe5 Rd4 35.Rb1 Nxc4 36.Nxc4 Rxc4 37.Rxb6 Rxa3 ;

B2) 24.gxh3 24...axb4 25.axb4 Rxa1 26.Qxa1 Qg5+ 27.Kf2 f6 28.Nxc6 Qg2+ 29.Ke1 Rxd3 30.Qa8+ Kh7 31.Qxb7 Qxh3 (31...Qh2 32.Rf2 Qh1+ 33.Rf1 Ng2+ 34.Kf2 Qxh3 35.Ncd4 Nxe3; 31...Ra3 ) 32.Ncd4 Ng2+ 33.Kf2 Nxe3 34.Rg1 Qh2+ 35.Kf3 Nd5+ 36.Kg4 Qh3#

I might add that this type of position is one where computers are only limited help. I doubt if I would have seen enough of this to play Bxh3 over the board (or, for that matter, the move before it). I analyzed the position for probably over an hour -- and Fritz didn't find some of these lines, either. Computers are outstanding at tactics IF the key moves are within the search horizon you give them time to cover.

But here, Fritz didn't actually "see" the position as winning for Black in line B2 until I got to move 31, even though there are at least three different ways to win at that point. That's 18 ply out from the position after 23.Nxe5, too far ahead for a computer program to find the winning lines in a practical amount of time unless it's running on a supercomputer.

So it's really impressive to me that Larsen saw 22...Nh4 over the board and probably either intuitively understood that White's king was probably dead or analyzed 20 ply ahead and saw that White was lost no matter how he replied to Black's 22nd (or maybe both). Larsen may not have found the best way to finish Saren off at the very end, but 22...Nh4 is a very deep and impressive move.

Apr-26-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: I really missed this one! I was looking for a back rank thrust and a fork-but not a queen trap!

Shame,shame,everybody knows my name,lol

Apr-26-06  dakgootje: Ow btw for the puzzle: i got it (maybe partly, depends on what is required for solving), but went for the Nxe3, mostly because i found it a logic follow-up and not because i considered like 5 possible moves =)

Doesnt matter whether this counts as a solved puzzle, but its a hard week for me this week, takes far longer calculation and thinking then normally these days take.

Apr-26-06  clausantos: I didn't see Rd2. Terrific! I missed this one...
Apr-26-06  RandomVisitor: <jmelton>You are quite the computer wiz!

My thought in the Bxh3 line, your section B2, was that 28.Ng4 was better and pretty much holds for white.

Apr-26-06  LIFE Master AJ: <chessgames> Nice puzzle! (thanks)

<jmelton> Excellent analysis.

Apr-26-06
Premium Chessgames Member
  gawain: I never saw 32 ... Rd2 which is very pretty indeed. 32 ...Nxe3 is clearly better, though.

I think in this situation one should take "full credit" only for (a) seeing that BOTH moves win & (b) seeing that one move is quite a lot better than the other.

Apr-26-06  ckr: I missed this one. I thought 31...Qd2 trapping the queen as in <Patzer2> variation was it and did not think as far as his variation.

<White's pawn structure and piece placement is so poor that even the quiet Queen trap 31...Qd2! works. Play might continue 31...Qd2! 32. Rxd2 Rxd2 33. Qxc4 Bxc4 34. Bxc4 Rd1+! 35. Kf2 Rc3! , using a pin and double attack to win back the temporarily sacrificed material.>

However, from the line he gives, I do not think the line wins as 36.Ne2 exposes attacks on both rooks and black ends up down in the exchange.

Apr-26-06  patzer2: <Euripides> Thanks for the correction! The lines I looked at above were indeed intended to start 31...Qxd1!! 32. Bxd1 Nxe3!

Sorry if I confused anyone.

Apr-26-06  patzer2: <ckr> After <31...Qd2! 32. Rxd2 Rxd2 33. Qxc4 Bxc4 34. Bxc4 Rd1+! 35. Kf2 Rc3!> and your followup <36. Ne2>, play would continue 36...Rxb1 37. Nxc3 Rc1 when Black gains back the sacrificed piece and will be the exchange up for an easy win.
Apr-26-06  patzer2: <jmelton> After <23...Bxh3 24.gxh3 24...axb4 25.axb4 Rxa1 26.Qxa1 Qg5+ 27.Kf2 f6>, instead of <28. Nxc6?> White seems to stand better with 28. Ng4! . Do you see a win after this or an earlier improvement for Black?
Apr-26-06  ckr: <Patzer2> Yes I see it now, it would end up black rook and 5 pawns (1 passed) against N and 5 Pawns
Apr-26-06  Black Ice: I played this position against Fritz and found: 32. ... Nxe3 33. Nb3 Rxd1+ 34. Qxd1 Nxd1 35. Rxd1 Bxb3 36. Rd6 Bc4 0-1 I was not expecting 33. Nb3 but rather Qb2.

Either way, it's a clear win. I imagine there are better moves, but I'm still young. I have time to improve these skills.

Apr-26-06  jmelton: <RandomVisitor: <jmelton>You are quite the computer wiz!>

Thanks. Actually for a change I didn't use the computer much except to verify that I wasn't making blunders. As I said, they're just as little use in tactical positions where crucial situations are beyond a practical search horizon as they generally are in closed positions where one has to think of plans rather than calculate.

I think the keys to using computers effectively for analysis are: 1) take into account the computer's search horizon and move forward in promising lines to give the computer a better chance to find things and 2) don't believe everything the computer says as far as which moves it evaluates best. Sometimes what the computer evaluates as second or third (or even tenth) best turns out to be the best move when you look a little farther down the search tree.

<My thought in the Bxh3 line, your section B2, was that 28.Ng4 was better and pretty much holds for white.>

Alas, that was the one time I let the computer do its thing and didn't check its evaluation with my own eyes. Ng4 is an excellent move that shuts the queen out as well as protecting the e3 pawn, and actually seems to give White the edge as far as I can tell. But Fritz rated it second-best behind Nxc6, when in reality it is far superior to Nxc6.

Black's best seems to be to get in with the queen first with 27...Qg2+. I don't have time to post detailed analysis right now, but as far as I can tell you are correct; Black has no more than a draw.

Apr-27-06  LIFE Master AJ: <jmelton>

<I think the keys to using computers effectively for analysis are: 1) take into account the computer's search horizon and move forward in promising lines to give the computer a better chance to find things and 2) don't believe everything the computer says as far as which moves it evaluates best. Sometimes what the computer evaluates as second or third (or even tenth) best turns out to be the best move when you look a little farther down the search tree.>

Very insightful, I have been trying to tell people that for a long time. (My detractor's have said that all my annotations are automatically done by Fritz, and I just add words ... but this is complete rubbish.) Sometimes you just have to be willing to explore various branches of the analysis tree ... many times, finding the right line is as much a product of hard work and trial-and-error ... as anything else.

And - as you have already noted - often times the computer will be unwilling to look at a promising move, unless you give it an hour per turn, and you have to sort of take the bull by the ring in its nose ... and lead it where you want it to go. (You will know if it is a dead end - but only fater you have arrived, and allowed the box at least five minutes in a given position. Most evaluations done after a few seconds are NOT reliable.)

This is why - when I see work by <patzer2> or <RandomVisitor> or you, I don't mind taking a serious look at it. I know you have already spent some time with the computer ... and weeded out the obvious errors.

May-01-07  Trimagna: 7. h3 Bd7
8. d4 Be7
9. d5 Na7
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