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| Jan-12-12 | | JoergWalter: <thomastonk> thank you very much. |
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| Jan-12-12 | | thomastonk: Sorry, I have mixed things up in my last kibitzing. :-( The game G Perigal vs Popert, 1840 is published without names and year in George Walker's The Philidorian, December 1837, p.36-37 (and thus the year is wrong, and maybe the White player, too - see above). |
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| Jan-12-12 | | JoergWalter: It is Perigal and Pulling vs. Popert.
I made a post there:
<JoergWalter: Pretty game. The so called Morphy attack was played when Morphy was 3 years old. Walker gives this game as a consultation game of Perigal and P*ll**g vs. Popert in his "Chess Studies..." from 1844 (No.10 in section III of chapter X). The "expert" Tim Harding wrote in his Kibitzer column: "dated 1840 by the MegaBase 2003 (though I though it was 1851-2)".> |
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| Jan-12-12 | | Boomie: <thomastonk: <Boomie> Two more findings in my database of old games.
9. Nc3 appeared already in a game Roberterio vs Pettitt played on 29th May 1829> Interesting. I wonder if this game appeared in any publication before 1834. In any case La Bourdonnaise is the first player of any importance to play Nc3. |
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| Jan-12-12 | | JoergWalter: <Boomie>,<thomastonk> The Evans was seemingly only known in england and it was M'Donnel who decided to play it against LaBourdonnais in their match.
To Labourdonnais is was a surprise but he managed to improvise the "Lasker Defence". The game with annotations by Morphy is here
McDonnell vs La Bourdonnais, 1834 |
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| Jan-12-12 | | JoergWalter: this is the game Labourdonnais played 9.Nc3 and lost. La Bourdonnais vs McDonnell, 1834
he favoured 9.d5 like Anderssen did later. |
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| Jan-13-12 | | thomastonk: <JoergWalter> For historical aspects, Morphy's comments are no primary source and so we should treat/use them with care. La Bourdonnais knew the Evans Gambit before his matches with McDonnell, and even the position after 8.. Bb6 was known to him. This can be seen, for example, in his book from 1833 "Nouveau traite du jeu des echecs", p 56, where the line continues with 9. Bb2. So, Morphy's statement that he was "comparitavely unacquainted with this new style of play" is probably wrong. Another view into my database of old games proves that the Evans Gambit was not only known in England and France, or shall I say, London and Paris, but also in the new world: there is a fragment of a game Schlumberger, W. vs Oliver, B.L from Boston 1833. |
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| Jan-13-12 | | JoergWalter: <thomastonk> that is highly interesting information and material. Looks like some of the "popular" chess history needs to be rewritten. Just look at material on the Evans in the chesscafe skittles room. |
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| Jan-13-12 | | thomastonk: <JoergWalter> Did you ever visited Mr Winter's site: http://chesshistory.com/ ? Or his contributions at Chessbase: http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail... ? |
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| Jan-13-12 | | JoergWalter: <thomastonk> I know those sites and appreciate Winter's work a lot. I was referring to articles by Tim Harding and others about the Evans gambit at the chesscafe. |
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| May-08-12 | | chessik: Hello!
What´s the purpose for 38...-Qe1?
And which could be the final moves?
Thanks |
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| Feb-27-15 | | poorthylacine: CHESSIK, if 38.Qe1, the situation is not better for White: 38... h6, or 38...Qb4, or 38...Rf4, and there is not more salvation: how could De Riviere fight with one bishop less and no perspective of attack? The threat of discovered check made De Rivière lose his calm after 29...Rxf2!!, and 30 Kh1?? was the fatal blunder: 30.Rxf2 was necessary in order to go on with resistance... |
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| Oct-18-20 | | paulmorphy1969: In the book by Maroczy and Sergeant of Macon Shibut the game ends with 38 ... Qe3, all 3 authors have the same number of moves so this game must be corrected |
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| Oct-18-20 | | paulmorphy1969: Does anyone know the exact date this game was played? |
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Dec-24-20
 | | MissScarlett: Game appears in the <ILN> of January 19th 1867, p.75: <The following Game, hitherto unpublished, we owe to the politeness of our valued contributor, Mr. Arnous de Riviere. It was played between him and Mr. Morphy during the latter's visit to Paris in 1863.> Do other sources have the 1858 date, as well? |
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Dec-24-20
 | | Honza Cervenka: Well. last two moves make no sense here. I guess that 38...Qe3 39.Be6 h5 is more probable order of moves. |
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Dec-24-20
| | MissScarlett: I’m coming to that....I bid you patience. |
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Dec-24-20
| | MissScarlett: <I guess that 38...Qe3 39.Be6 h5 is more probable order of moves.> The <ILN> has <38...a4 39.Be6 Qe3> which makes complete sense of <Be6> and <Qe3>. <Qe3> doesn't just threaten the e4 pawn, it also eyes h6 against the threat of <40.h5>. As nice as <39...Qe3> is (SF prefers <...Bf4>), it didn't prompt de Riviere to throw in the towel: <and, after a few more moves, Black [here White] abandoned the game.> There are a couple of other discrepancies in the score. i) White's 16th is <Bf4> not <Bh4>, but after <...Ng6> the transposition is immediate. ii) <23. dxc6 bxc6 24. Nxe5 fxe5> instead of <23. Nxe5 fxe5 24. dxc6 bxc6>. Staunton's (and, presumably, de Riviere's) claim that the game was hitherto unpublished isn't correct. <Bell's Life in London>, October 29th 1864, p.9, has it, but with both <16.Bh4> and <23. Nxe5 fxe5 24. dxc6 bxc6>. Curiously, however, the game ends: <38.Qg4 Qe3 Morphy wins.>Walker gives no source for the game. I think di Riviere's score in the <ILN> deserves precedence. |
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Dec-25-20
| | Honza Cervenka: <MissScarlett> <The <ILN> has <38...a4 39.Be6 Qe3> which makes complete sense of <Be6> and <Qe3>. <Qe3> doesn't just threaten the e4 pawn, it also eyes h6 against the threat of <40.h5>.> Yes, it is correct. I wonder why this apparent solution, i.e. a4 instead of h5, did not cross my mind. |
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| Mar-23-21 | | paulmorphy1969: This game is 38 moves not 39, it is wrong in the last 2 moves it must be corrected as you can see in the books of Segeant, Maroczy, Macon Shibut
Published by Staunton in Illustrated London News on 9 January 1864 Link:
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt...
Also from Anderssen in Berlin Schachzeitung 1864 link:
https://books.google.it/books?id=Pq...
the last 2 correct moves are
37.h4 Be5
38.Qg4 Qe3 |
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Mar-23-21
| | MissScarlett: Well, it seems Staunton was doubly wrong since he'd published it himself, but I still contend that di Riviere's score takes precedence over whichever French source Staunton took it from in 1864. |
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| Apr-06-21 | | paulmorphy1969: The same game was republished incorrectly by Staunton in Illustrated London News Volume 50, page 75, 19 Jan 1867 this time with 39 moves varying the last moves and with the wording and after a few moves Black quits assigning defeat to Morphy, from there some internet sites, games on youtube, chessgames etc. have used this wrong version. Version in the last moves different from this one published here on chessgames. |
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| Feb-08-22 | | Z free or die: <Sources are good, of course, but who has the time/library/inclination to check them all out?> Agreed, and that's why I appreciate <paulmorphy1969>'s use of links as well as citations. E.g. the secondary ILN version of the game ( <ILN> of January 19th 1867, p.75 [nice]) is here: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt... [nicer?] Much as I like <Missy>'s thoroughness with citations, I really wish s/he would realize the utility for the <Source_url> (and use links more in himer's great historical tidbits). After all - "but who has the time/library/inclination to" chase down citations without urls? |
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Feb-08-22
| | MissScarlett: What percentage of links over, say, 5 years old are still active? |
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| Feb-08-22 | | Z free or die: PS- <paulmorphy1969> mistakenly says the secondary version of game "ith the wording and after a few moves Black quits assigning defeat to Morphy". One needs a careful eye here, but the source text gives the loss to Black and doesn't explicitly mention Morphy. This is because the colors are reversed (again see the ILN text), and de Riviere plays the Black pieces, despite having the first move. Such was the confusing nomenclature and conventions of chess in the Victorian age. |
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