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Karl Hamppe vs Adolf Schwarz
Vienna (1864)
Vienna Game: Stanley Variation (C26)  ·  0-1



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Sep-20-11  sevenseaman: <Memethecat> <Bond super villains leave too much to chance, that's why they can't ever make it to the end of the film.>

In battle, taxes and chess such chances are unaffordable.

Sep-20-11  Patriot: I went with the 25...Nd2+ 26.Kg1 Qxd4+ 27.Nxd4 Rxe1# line because it is most forcing. I generally prefer this approach and have no problem if it is not aesthetic in some way because you don't get more points for a beautiful combination. However, I think <Once> makes a good point as well about dominance. Black's position is so good he doesn't need to make completely forcing moves. It's the difference between art and science.

<morfishine> Excellent post!

Sep-20-11  Patriot: <M.Hassan> In most mate problems it would be called "mate in 3". 25...Nd2+, 26...Qxd4+, and 27...Rxe1#.
Sep-20-11  Whitehat1963: Took me about 30 seconds today, but I'm ashamed to say that I flubbed up yesterday's puzzle!
Sep-20-11  jackpawn: Like many others I came up with the 25. . . Nd2+ line, but of course both lines work.
Sep-20-11  rhickma4: I found mate in 3.

25...Nd2+ 26.Kg1 Qxd4+ 27.Nxd4 (27.Kf1 Qf2#) Rxe1#

Anything quicker?

Sep-20-11  SuperPatzer77: a) 25...Qxd4! as follows:

1) 26. Qxg3 Nd2#
2) 26. Nxg3 Nd2# (or 26...Qf2#)
2) 26. Nxd4 Nd2+, 27. Kg1 Rxe1#

b) 25...Nd2+!, 26. Kg1 Qxd4+!, 27. Nxd4 (forced) Rxe1#

It is just 3 moves in mate with both a) and b). Thus, the two moves (26...Nd2+ and 26...Qxd4!) both are good moves in my opinion.


Sep-20-11  sevenseaman: 27 year old, Ukrainian GM , former FIDE champion Ruslan Ponomariov is a very tenacious tournament player and may have scalped all the big guns. In the recently concluded Candidates WC he was narrowly eliminated by compatriot Vassily Ivanchuk. I have always admired his control and insightful game.

Here is an interesting position where he expertly wins from Boris Savchenko. Not too tough. If you hit the first key move, the rest just flow. May be Wednesday like difficulty.

Ruslan Ponomariov vs Boris Savchenko - Moscow 2007

click for larger view

W in 4.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Congrats all vie for double it cadence rock knee the big dipper Daven Tilly queen and knight ar good I salute on paper both finds samish aka ze book rampage cift black rook pex it in chaudron.
Sep-20-11  brianhughes: <sevenseaman> Whites moves Be6 threatening Qh7# on the next move.

Black delays longest by playing
... Bh4
Qxg6+, Kh8
Rhxh4+, Qxh4

If instead black responds to Be6 by playing
... Re8
Qh7+, Kf8

Sep-20-11  sevenseaman: <brianhughes> Welcome huge brains. I may not be able to find a tough one for you.
Sep-20-11  BOSTER: Today POTD looks like a composition.
Now it's very difficult to build such position in the real game, and this performance shows that the art of attack in Anderssen's era,the beauty of combination was the first priority in chess, when an amazing imagination created such masterpiece like the Evergreen Game.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <gofer> I nearly had a small sanitation accident reading that! Very funny.
Sep-20-11  M.Hassan: <sevenseaman>: What an outstanding appreciation of my words and how correctly worded. Thank you so much. We say: "What comes out of the heart, sits on the heart". A Persian proverb
Sep-20-11  M.Hassan: <Patriot: In most problems it would be called "mate in 3">

That's what I thought and that's what I wrote too, but when we consider the definitin of a move, this does not fit. "A move is defined as a play and a counter play" and I agree that in most if not all problems it is called mate in 3 because they never say mate in 2.5. But chess is very precise and everything is on a reason, how come this is not?. I guess it is because there is no half a move after mate. Yes?

Premium Chessgames Member
  FSR: <chrisowen: Congrats all vie for double it cadence rock knee the big dipper Daven Tilly queen and knight ar good I salute on paper both finds samish aka ze book rampage cift black rook pex it in chaudron.>

Once again chrisowen nails it.

Sep-20-11  BOSTER: This is the position after black played 16...Qd7 in this very sharp game.

click for larger view

Here white plyed 17.h4 and black knight took very nice e4.

The history does not admit <if>. Nevertheless, who would win <if> white played 17.Bxf6 and after Rxf6 18.Qc3?

Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <M.Hassan> I'm guessing, but I think the explanation is that there is more than one definition of a move in chess - an old definition and a more modern one.

Announcing mate in so many moves is a very old custom. Probably as old as Greco. I think that when we say "white to mate in 3 moves", what we are really saying is that white will make three more moves and at the end of those three moves by white it will be mate.

This dates back to a time when chess games went on for as long as the players wanted and clocks weren't used. Back then they even used to give odds about allowing weaker players extra moves, so it seems reasonable that a move is a move by one player only.

I believe that the idea that "a move" is a move each by both sides is a later invention, probably when clocks and time limits started to be used. That was when we started to define chess as so many moves in a given amount of time.

I dunno. It's a theory.

Sep-20-11  Shams: <BOSTER> Your simple improvement looks clearly winning. Shredder sees virtually no compensation for the piece. Nice work, killer.
Sep-20-11  DarthStapler: I actually saw the game line first but then I decided on the Nd2+ line instead, I guess both are good
Sep-20-11  Creg: 25...Qxd4! Threatens 26...Qf2 mate

27.Nxd4 Nd2+ 28.Kg1 (forced) Rxe1 mate

Sep-20-11  Sydro: I solved the puzzle but I saw it with knight check first because it is faster to see this forced sequence with the knight first check than Queen takes first because white has more options to choose on his 26th if you take with queen first therefore I guess if you were in a hurry you would most likely choose the other line.
Sep-21-11  M.Hassan: <once>: I guess you are right when no formal chess is being played. But in modern chess and particularly correspondance chess very much "half a move" is being considered and termed. E.G presently World Team is playing against GM V.Akobian and each side is allowed half a move per 48 hours. Thanks for your view
Premium Chessgames Member
  Once: <M.Hassan> It may be one of those occasions when the language surrounding chess contains an anomaly but there is no formalised way to correct it.

Because the phrase "mate in X" is not needed for a game, presumably FIDE don't feel the need to add it to the rules to chess. And so it may stay inconsistent with the idea of half moves.

Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: Notice how the e-file opens like the Red Sea.
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