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Sameer Sursock vs Bent Larsen
Siegen (1970), Siegen FRG, Sep-??
Sicilian Defense: Fischer-Sozin Attack. Leonhardt Variation (B88)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Given 88 times; par: 11 [what's this?]

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Oct-03-02  refutor: Here's an example : Wade vs Smyslov, 1965 from the webpage http://www.kasparovchess.com/serve/... which shows the advantage of the bishop pair in the middlegame. hope this clears things up :)
Oct-03-02  drukenknight: okay refutor I'll have to look at this game and see if I can find a save in their.

I agree that we cant be dogmatic about anything in chess. So I agree w/ much of what you say.

Let me ask you this: do you believe that B are better than N? If you believe this, then it is redundant to say that the B pair is an advantage. Agreed? After all the person w/ the B pair already has the B v N advantage.

Or do you believe B = N and it is only w/ 2 B that you see an advantage?

Me, I think a B = N = 3. That is all my little brain can handle.

On the line above: I will say this, I did not have to sack the B w/ 17 Bxb5 but let's try to play it out and see if I can put something together. Obviously you can vary from the line if you can find something better for black.

After all, I am hanging in their longer then Sursock did.

Oct-03-02  drukenknight: refutor I dont your example is very good. Smyslov has the B pair between moves 10-18, the game went on for 30+ move and it doesn't seem to have been lost during that period.

Moroever, on move 18 Smyslov trades B for N. So what gives there? I guess Smyslove didn't read the book either.

IT's funny, first "they" try to convince you that the B is better than the N, then they try to tell you that the B pair is better. Well which is it?

Oct-04-02
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: A classic example of adventage of bishop pair against bishop and knight is the game S Rosenthal vs Steinitz, 1873
Oct-07-02  drukenknight: 24 Rad1 appears to be the blunder in that game since it leaves the RP en prise, that pawn and the f pawn get snatched up. So white is down 2 pawns, you know yourself any loss of material w/o any compensation will be bad.

But what do you think of the possibl line above:

13 QxQ Nf3+ 14 Kh1 NxQ 15 Ba4+ b5 16 R(f)d1!? Nc6 17 Bxb5 axb5 18 Nxb5 Kd7 19 a4

Oct-07-02
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: Black has +2 pieces in that line. It's only matter of time and technique to break white's resistance.
Oct-07-02  drukenknight: can you give any more moves after 19 a4? or show what is wrong with the line I gave?
Oct-07-02
Premium Chessgames Member
  Honza Cervenka: There is not any special forced line but what about this: 19...Nb4 20.c3 Nc2 21.Rac1 Bb7 22.Rxc2 (22.f3 Ne3) Bxe4 23.Rcd2 Bxg2+ 24.Kg1 Bf3+ 25.Kf1 Bxd1 26.Rxd1 Rxa4 etc.
Oct-07-02  drukenknight: if there is no special forced line, then it is entirely possible the game is still alive. Lasker talks about this sort of thing, he shows a comment by Morphy, talking about Labordonnais and MacDonnel, the note goes on for pages, it's got all these lines, like 12 moves deep.

Yeah its all so interesting, but if you go 12 moves deep and there is still no overwhelming advantage what does it mean? Well Lasker leaves that for the reader to figure out.

Basically at this stage we are playing out this game as a correspodence game, I have got Sursock at least alive for 19 moves and perhaps I can do more. Perhaps I made a mistake in there but Honza is gracious and we can pick it up on move 19.

HOw long do you think I can last Honza? 10 more moves? 20? Forever? Perhaps Larsen will get hit by lightening during the time control. After all, time is still finite.

Oct-07-02  refutor: yawn...can you find compensation in this too? 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 Nbd7 7.Bc4 Qa5 8.O-O? Qxg5 <sarcasm> after all, look at all the queen moves by black and the development advantage by white</sarcasm> yes you could make it last for another 20 moves if you'd like but it's pointless...you aren't the kind of person that plays on to mate, and only takes a draw when there's 2 kings left, are you? ;)
Oct-07-02  drukenknight: refutor if that's how you really think, then I think you need to learn more about chess. Your insinuations are just not true. There is only one way to find out if the game is even or the game is lost. You have to play the moves out.

Frankly, I think this guy Sursock was a quitter, who fell behind by one pt in material and got all afraid and gave up.

Every game white must give up material in order to go on the attack. Unless black makes a mistake of course. Every gambit is based on this idea.

ARe gambits sound? of course, they are for white, as long as its only one pt. of material they are.

Have you ever seen a fantastic finish in chess? Some unbelievable final save? If you play hard core you will see that kind of stuff every night. Almost every game really. Because the game is that close if you dont make many mistakes.

But let's put it this way: do I only show you lines that go on forever? or do I try to find both lines that are forcing and lines that go on forever.

Agreed? I don't only pop up here to demonstrate a line that goes onto infinity.

IF I think a game is won, I will propose a forcing line.

If I think a game is still in the balance I will respond to every move you propose.

that's all anyone can do. Agreed?

Oct-07-02  refutor: i agree with most of what you say, but you argued white's position in this game to the point of being absurd with imaginary/negligible compensation for the huge material deficit.
Oct-08-02  drukenknight: I really think he can hold the position Refutor and he just gave up at the shock.

Here's a question have you ever seen white lose a pawn at the beginning of the game and have a lost position? Assuming the rest of the material is even, he just lost one pawn. Have you ever seen it be a forced loss? I never have.

Here's something else to think about. Have you ever played symmetrical q-side opening as white and somehow were backed into a corner. IT happens all the tiem if you play symm. openings. What did you have to do?

It only makes sense. There are three factors, TIME/MATERIAL/POSITION. WHite is given tempo to start the game, but tempo alone does not win, he to have an advatage in one other category maybe both. So to have an advtangage in one of these categories will not win, white drops a pawn, say, but he gains his tempo back and the game remains ongoing. THen black sacs his N in order to gain position, but still no win. Then white sees he is in trouble and gives back material in order to save his position. THen black has all this position, e.g. a pin, but he does not have material.

Back and forth we go, you just keep trading from one aspect to another. Until someone makes an error, in which case someon loses both tempo and material in a single bad move. Or both material and position e.g. a pin or whatever.

They say that all successful attacks are based on a double attack.

Okay maybe. I say that all successful wins are based on dominating in at least two categories out of the three POSITION/MATERIAL/TEMPO.

TO dominate in only one is not enuf. YOu will see I will explain it as we go.

Let me ask you another thing? Have you studied Lakser what did it mean to "Laskerize?"

Think about it.

Oct-08-02  drukenknight: Refutor I don't waste anybody's time playing this out for 40 moves, I really dont care about Sicilian or some lesser guy playing Larsen.

Larsen was pretty good. SOmeday we will have go over the French in game 1 vs Fisher in 1971. Now that was great. You can spend a great deal of time on that oen.

Okay but my pt is: have you ever seen a forced win given by an analyst that was more than 5 or 6 moves? I really never have.

Oh yeah, they say they did. Tal says he saw this mate in ten, or Lasker says he saw this mater in eleven.

For Lasker ok maybe he did see it. But if you study closely all these books by the masters I cannot recall ever seeing a forced win that you couldn't tell was forced in 5 or 6 moves.

I never calculate anything beyond five usually. That is my limit.

OKay one time, I was playing black in a budapest vs computer and it said "mate in 11" (I was going to lose) My buddy and I almost freaked out.

But look how long I've been playing Sursocks position here, I am now 7 moves beyond were he gave up and I bet I can get to 40.

Just a feeling, I dont want to waste your time I really dont. We've got better games to go over.

Nov-04-02  AgentRgent: Hey DK for a Great (IMHO) example of the Bishop pair in action. check out: http://www.35chessolympiad.com/pgn/...

With bishop and Knight the passed pawn wasn't able to be advanced and it cost the game. But I agree there are times when it's ok to give them up (i.e. the Nimzo-Indian)

Nov-04-02  Danilomagalhaes: Yeah, there are good moves in this game, but I dont think already that is a position to abort the game. Sorry if Im wrong, I dont have more time to study the position than you...
Nov-04-02  AgentRgent: opps sorry forgot to tell you which game.. it's Socko-Shahade
Nov-04-02  Danilomagalhaes: He, he, Im thinking too loudly. I wasnt talk to anybody when I was writing that. Ops, are you talking to me? Im confused. ":-P
Nov-09-02  drukenknight: Agent: it is an interesting game, I would agree but really I dont think the B pair was especially a factor in this. The game seems to have been lost somewhere in the endgame.

I am critical of a lot of moves in this game anyways. Starting w/ black, at the beginning of the middle game, black is ahead in material and refuses to exchange. After white isolates the b pawn, black is ahead in connected pawns. Black refuses to exchange on move 17....RxR. Also move 18....Bxf4 would have been nice. Also on move 20 she should exchange.

Having failed to exchange pieces when ahead, black now feels that she should exchange pieces when behind! (this is after black blows up her q side pawns she is behind if you count connectd pawns)

THus, on black's 24th, she exchanges. Why? On blacks 27th again an exchange. this also sets up a fork that hurts. Again on move 30 black simply facilitates an exchange. Then again on move 31.

You can argue each of these moves out one by one and argue that that was the only move she had, blah blah blah, but its funny that every time after move 21 (when white goes ahead in material) when white is presented with the oppurtunity to exchange she takes her up on it.

Coincidence? Perhaps.

All these exchanges favor white because white is ahead in material.

Finally why 36...Na2? Placing a N that far away is always going to mess you up unless you get something else from it. For most of the remaining end game, this N cannot move and black is playing down a piece, w/ very little else on the board.

If you look at the situation on move 36, black is down material so she should think about attacking the K. 36...Ne5+ (I think, I dont have it front of me) would do this as well as put the N in a good spot.

My guess is if you plug in your computer from there the game can be held. But there are lots of dubious moves, probably a few more in the remaining 50 moves.

You pick a good game to argue the concept though, I have to admit the B pair does last for a long time, But I think the black simply misplaces the N on move 36.

SO Agent: do you think that one B is better than one N?

Nov-10-02  AgentRgent: DK, Depends on the position. Bishops gain value as the board opens or the endgame approaches. Since I generally play to both open the board, and get to an advantageous endgame, I'd have to say for me.. the bishop is the more valuable. But that's based on playing style more than the pieces themselves.
Nov-10-02
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessgames.com: M Socko vs J Shahade, 2002
Nov-11-02  AgentRgent: Thanks Chessgames.com! The game wasn't in the database yet when I posted the link.
Sep-02-07  diegoami: Qxd4 !! lol
Aug-19-12  LoveThatJoker: Guess-the-Move Final Score:

Sursock vs Larsen, 1970.
YOU ARE PLAYING THE ROLE OF LARSEN.
Your score: 18 (par = 11)

LTJ

Jul-24-13
Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: A piece down against a top GM and no compensation of any kind? Much more practical to save one's energy and fight another day, much less all this foolish debate over a dead lost position.
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