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Gustav Richard Neumann vs Wilhelm Steinitz
Baden-Baden (1870), Baden-Baden GER, rd 10, Jul-27
Dutch Defense: Staunton Gambit. Chigorin Variation (A83)  ·  0-1

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Nov-30-09  zanshin: <ajk68: Does white have the win at move 106? It seems Kd6 is winning.>

106.Kd6 may be the best move, but I don't think it's winning. I haven't played out the lines, but it seems that White's pawns do not Queen.


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[-5.12] d=20 106.Kd6 Ke4 (0:06.45) 140424kN

Nov-30-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  DarthStapler: Got it
Nov-30-09  BOSTER: I guess that today with the cute move g8=N <CG> opened Steinitz' week, who was the greater thinker, creating the principle of positional equilibrium.
Nov-30-09  mworld: <YouRang: Hmmm. I don't understand this. It is not uncommon for a puzzle to be "play to draw". In this case, 114.g8=N is the only move that doesn't lose, so it's obviously the only solution.>

Actually he has a great point. The knight vs rook endgame is hard to evaluate.

If you understand the Rook vs Knight endgame at all, then this puzzle actually presents itself in a way that you would think the underpromotion would probably still be a black win in all likelyhood. A knight in the corner in this endgame (as is the case in this puzzle) is usually a win for the Rook. I think that's why this Monday is significantly harder than most, since the ppl that understand some of this endgame are basically presented with a solution that tends to evaluate as a loss. You'd have to be extremely well versed in this to understand that its still a draw from a quick glance.

Of course the underpromotion is the only reasonable move, so the puzzle does have a clear solution from that standpoint.

A good link on this endgame can be found here http://www.chess.com/article/view/r...

Nov-30-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Jimfromprovidence: It sure looks like 104 Kc5 leaves white with strong winning chances.


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How can black stop both Rb1 and Rd1, seeing Rb8 and Rd8, respectively?

Nov-30-09  WhiteRook48: 114 g8=N+ obviously
Nov-30-09  muralman: Mworld, thank you for your understanding. I agree the knight promotion is the only option, and does give white a fighting chance. It's just that Mondays have had this finality that you knew you could win with. As the player showed, you can't bank on it.
Nov-30-09  Artar1: <Once>:

Outstanding advice! Thanks for posting your thoughts on this subject!

Nov-30-09  YouRang: <mworld><Of course the underpromotion is the only reasonable move, so the puzzle does have a clear solution from that standpoint.>

That is the standpoint from which I claimed that the solution was obvious. Of course, to know how to force a draw with K+N vs. K+R isn't so obvious. You must avoid letting your knight and king get separated, and you must avoid cornering your king. But again, I don't think that one needs to consider such analysis to know that 114.g8=N must be the solution.

The main thing I disagreed with was the statement: <This is a mere resuscitation of a terminal patient.>

This statement suggests that 114.g8=N merely delays white's defeat -- which is plain wrong. For that reason I proposed that the writer wasn't aware that white actually could have forced a draw, but lost due to a subsequent blunder.

Nov-30-09  David2009: Monday's problem G Neumann vs Steinitz, 1870 White 114?

The first move is simple (114 g8=N+) but can I hold the draw against Crafty after 114... Ke6


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Neumann-Steinitz 115?
Yes. http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... 115 Nh6 and Crafty quickly settles into a draw by repetition without even trying 115 ....Rh7 116 Ng8. Reverse the colours and it is still drawn:


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Neumann-Steinitz colours reversed ...115? http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... White can make no progress.

I saw this ending earlier, so no real credit. Time to read other comments and see how the game went.

Nov-30-09  mworld: < YouRang: > I agree, Im just highlighting a point and I am not sure you saw what I meant. So in case you didnt, here goes, if you did, then apologize for the redundant explanation.

Yes, his conclusion that 114.g8=N delays white's defeat is simply what I was pointing out. If you know a good deal about this endgame, that's the conclusion you would draw yourself - its the conclusion I drew as well, since I am not a GM. I just knew about the basic rules of Knight in the corner of a R v N endgame. However, i settled on the underpromotion since its the only viable move.

If you don't know much about the endgame, its really easy to assume its a draw, which brings out the paradoxical nature of this Monday problem. However, if you do know about it (but aren't an expert at it) you will find yourself feeling like you chose defeat as the solution. That link I sent summed up the rules real well.

Nov-30-09  David2009: <Jimfromprovidence: It sure looks like 104 Kc5 leaves white with strong winning chances. How can black stop both Rb1 and Rd1, seeing Rb8 and Rd8, respectively?>

Jim, Crafty agrees with you - your lines win against it. Winning practice link:


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Neumann-Steinitz 104? http://www.chessvideos.tv/endgame-t... You are white, drag and drop the move you want to make.

Nov-30-09  David2009: Following on from <imfromprovidence>'s note, with Black to play at move 106


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...Rg8 seems stronger than the game move ...Ke3. After 107 Kd6 Ke4 108 Ke6 Ra8 109 Kd6 Kd4 110 Ke6 Kc5 we reach with White to play


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and White's counter-play is too slow. If so 104 Rxf3?? was a losing (not just a drawing) blunder.

<zanshin: <ajk68: Does white have the win at move 106? It seems Kd6 is winning.> 106.Kd6 may be the best move, but I don't think it's winning.> The Black King approaches and White loses both his Pawns for Black's Rook, but his K is trapped on the 8th rank so he loses the pawn ending: 0-1

Nov-30-09  SufferingBruin: I want to thank everyone who responded to my post for the wonderful advice, and special thanks to "Once." Those comments are going on a damn plaque.

I realize my post might have been overly depressing which was not my intent--I love this game and will continue playing it. I'm not sure why the tone was so heavy-handed last night; probably fatigue.

Again, much obliged. And no, I don't have a great fear of turning into Neumann. But tell me, please, that you call checked out that photograph! Talk about intense...

Nov-30-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  Eggman: The position after 114.g8/N+ was also reached on move 90 in L Day vs Timman, 1980, where White did not blunder away the draw.
Nov-30-09  posporov: 116...Rh3!! white is zugzwang!
Nov-30-09  muralman: I have a hard time seeing a single move as a, "Solution." In this case, losing the game is not a solution in a game playing sense. I see a move as a move. I did not see any rule stating the first move is the solution.

On later , harder days, I notice some say they solved a puzzle by getting the first move right. I can't agree. In light of that reasoning, I get most puzzles correct.

Consider my confusion if I had, "Solved the puzzle," only to pogo bounce my new buddy the knight around all over the board without end.

Dec-01-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  kevin86: What a crazy game! What a crazy game! What a crazy game! What a crazy game!

Or my favorite fraction 43/99 which is: .434343434343434343434343434343434343434343434343- 434343...

Dec-06-09
Premium Chessgames Member
  sethoflagos: If white's pawn doesn't move, it gets taken and with no stalemate position available, white loses. 114 g8=x Rc8# unless x=N. So 114 g8=N+ is a forced move. Now providing WN stays tight on WK, it should be a drawn game.

Checking the game white manages to lose with 116 Ng4?? allowing WN to become detached.

114 g8=N+ Ke6
115 Nh6 Rh7
116 Ng8 Rf7+
117 Ke8 and all black can do is hope for a mistake

Aug-19-12  vinidivici: 116.Ng8!!!!!!!!!!

Will hold a draw.

Aug-19-12  DanielBryant: Even if there were no repetition rules at this time, would there be any issues of sportsmanship regarding not agreeing to a draw after so many repetitions? Having an opponent who will absolutely not deviate nor agree to a draw, in effect, creates a sort of game of chicken.
Jan-29-14  rickycota: 106. Kd6 would help?
Feb-21-15  diagonal: Nice background summary (in german language) about this game and the unlucky Player:

http://www.schachbund.de/news/die-e...

<Gustav Richard Neumann>, today a forgotten player, was <Number One> of the World (#1 at 18 different months between the December 1868 and the May 1870 rating list) according to the respected retrospective chessmetrics

Jun-30-19  woldsmandriffield: An interesting ending. As pointed out by others, 104 Kc5 is winning while 116 Ng4? was losing.

Two other comments. Firstly, 106 Kd6 is no improvement owing to 106..Ke4! 107 Ke6 (107 Kd7 Kd5 wins) 107..Rh8 108 Kd6 Kd4 109 Ke6 Kc5 110 Kd7 Kd5 -+


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Secondly, Steinitz erred with 107..Rc8? Instead 107..Kd4 108 Kxg6 Ke5! wins because of 109 Kf7 Ra7

Aug-16-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  gambitfan: underpromotion of a Pawn into a Knight to avoid mate ! It ends in an endgame Rook|Knight instead of Q|R
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