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Michiel A Wind vs Thomas Winckelmann
corr (1993) (correspondence)
Vienna Game: Hamppe-Meitner Variation (C25)  ·  1-0



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 1 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Mar-26-03  Rookpawn: If a viewer wonders about Black's queen sacrifice, I encourage him or her to play over the "Immortal Draw," Hamppe vs Meitner, 1872 .
Jun-07-03  Voxation: why did black resign?
Jun-07-03  sleepkid: ..because white succeeds in making an out for his King, and after that, his material advantage will come into play. 18. ...dxe4 19. Re1 Kd7 (protecting the bishop and threatening b6 mate) 20. Rxe6 Kxe6 and now, though the position is still complicated, Black has no direct mating threats, since he can't advance b6 without losing the knight. At this point white probably brings his Queen in to play (21. g4+ f5 22. Qxg7) if black moves the knight, the white king simply wanders off via b4.
Aug-20-03  dukesterdog: So has Wind refuted the "Immortal Draw"?
Aug-20-03  Calli: "refuted the "Immortal Draw"? "

Perhaps, the improvment being Kb5 instead of b4. Maybe 11...b6 is an improvement for Black.

Aug-21-03  dukesterdog: Of the two possible lines I see one looks good for White, and the other looks about even :

a) 11...b6 12. d4 exd4 13. Qxd4 Ne7 14. Qxc5 Bd7+ 15. Kb4 bxc5+ 16. Kxc5 and White is up a minor piece although his King is still exposed

b) 11...Ne7 [Now if 12. Kxc5, then Black plays a5 leading to the draw] 12. Qe1 a5 13. Qxe5 Na6 14. Kxa5 Nb8+ 15. Kb4 Nc6+ 16. Kb3 Nxe5 17. d4 ... and Whites King has made it to safety with roughly even chances.

Premium Chessgames Member
  InspiredByMorphy: The queen sac is atrocious 8. ... Bg4 9. Be2 Nc6 10.c3 b5 11. Nc5 Qc4+ 12. Kc2 Nd4+ 13.Kb1 Nxe2 Whites position is cramped and black has attacking chances everywhere with much better development. Not to mention the queen side pawns ready to storm the king on b1.
Jul-08-04  trogdor: after 11.Kb5 my computer goes on like this 11. ...b6 12.d4 exd4 13.Qxd4 Ne7 14.Qe5 f6. Then it claims black can mate white in 7 moves and rufeses to continue playing. But the line doesn't look right. It doesn't give me whites 15th move either it just says 15...a5 16.Qxe7+ Kxe7 17.Kc6 Rd8 18.Bf4 Bd7+....... Then it goes on with more nonsense, but I'm using the extreme chess program.
Jul-09-04  Theoryhack: Dukesterdog's lines seem to be right, though after 11 ne7, c4! seems to be winning for White - albeit an "only" move.

Tseitlin & Glazkov give 7 Qe1 as refuting the whole attack anyway, though Shredder does have Kc3 as it's first choice initially. T&G may be wrong...

Premium Chessgames Member
  chessdr: InspiredByMorphy: I like the possibilities of 8. ... Bg4, but what do you do after 9. Nf3? White has more resources that way.
Premium Chessgames Member
  chessdr: Theoryhack: After 7 Qe1 try 7. ... Bd7 with direct threats against the knight and weird threats against the f1 bishop. After 8. Nc3 dxe4+ I like black a lot, as in 9. Nxe4 f5; 9. Qxe4 Bf5; 9. Kc4 e3+ 10. Kb3 Nc6.

After 8. b3 Bb5+ 9. c4 dxc4+ 10. Kc3 Bxa4 11. bxa4 Nf6 white keeps the piece for two pawns but his position looks awful. I don't know -- after 12. d3 Qg4 who would you rather be?

Premium Chessgames Member
  TheAlchemist: Black's draw has gone with the Wind.
Oct-18-06  crafty: 12. b4 ♘e7 13. bxa5 ♖xa5+ 14. ♔xa5 ♘c6+ 15. ♔b5   (eval 3.47; depth 14 ply; 2000M nodes)
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: Simple development with <8... Nc6> should win. No intention to sac the ♕, even if it's monday.
Dec-14-07  Sibahi: Wow, I actually figured out a clue :D
Dec-14-07  Doktorn: Grats, Sibahi. I was going in another direction. "Almost equal to" "infinite" (timewise) "draw". So I checked the longest draws, and then tried to figure out a way to only search for long correspondance draws.
Jan-26-08  RookFile: The whole game is kind of silly in a way. With the common sense retreat 3... Be7, you start to wonder what exactly that knight is doing on a4. Black would welcome 4. Qg4 Nf6 5. Qxg7 Rg8 with a big lead in development.
Mar-25-09  WhiteRook48: blown away by the Wind
Jun-14-09  WhiteRook48: 3 Na4?? fails
Oct-01-13  Dragi: OK After Whites 11.Kb5 correct answer is 11.b6 ... if white plays 12.d4 then black plays 12.a5 ,white can not take knight or pawn because becaue of Bd7+ and mate ...The only move now , for white king , in this variation , is 13.Kc6 Kd8 , 14.dxc5 Ne7+ ,15.Kb5 Bd7+ mate...but this variation works only if white plays 14.dxc5 or dxe5 because if white king plays 14.Kxd5 his road is open , not completely saved but white wins ...

Second and more serious line after 11.b6 is 12.d4 a5 13.Kc6 Ne7+ 14.Kxc7 Nd7 15 .dxe5 Ra7+ 16.Kd6 0-0 17.Kxe7 Nc5+ 18.Kd6 Rd8+ 19.Kc6 Na4 20. Qxd5 Bb7+ 21.Kb5 Rxd5 ....i am going to sleep heheheh

Oct-01-13  Dragi: Or the best variation after 11.b6 is : 12.d4 a5 13.Kc6 Ne7+ 14.Kxc7 Nd7 15 .dxe5 Ra7+ 16.Kd6 Bb7 and white king is in a dead trap soon to be mate ..for example 17.Kc7 Ba8+ 18.Kd6 Nc8 mate

or 17.e6 Nc8+ ,18.Kc7 Ba8+ ,19.Kxc8 0 - 0 mate ...hehehe

Premium Chessgames Member
  takchess: Seems that I am locked out from a pun due to someones prior submittal. A Mighty Wind. Please give it a vote from me.
Jul-01-18  zanzibar: <<takchess> Please give it a vote from me.>

What?! And encourage this sort of behavior? Nothing doing!

Premium Chessgames Member
  takchess: Yes I have no pride....Z. Are you from New England ?
Jul-01-18  zanzibar: <takchess> yes siree bob!
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