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< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 5 OF 5 ·
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| Jun-07-09 | | Brown: <acirce> In your opinion, who was rude? Curious to know. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | acirce: Kramnik. Telling someone "you don't understand anything" just because he is wrong in an analysis - which he wasn't, but Kramnik genuinely thought he was - is a bit rude. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | WhiteRook48: I thought 59 Rg3 won |
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| Jun-07-09 | | mosh: The king dors not go to attack the checking rook on the h file! It goes to b8!For example:59...Rh2+ 60 Kc3 Rh3+ 61 Kc4 Rh4+ 62 Kd5 Rh5+ 63 Kd6 Rh6+ 64Kd7!Rh7+ 65 Kc8! Rxc7+ 66 Kb8 and black is lost. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | Brown: Understand your point, but don't you think the commentator was also rude, to suggest improvement in Kramnik's play right after a disappointing result? Doesn't sound like the discussion occurred at a press conference... |
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| Jun-07-09 | | acirce: Well, that's possible. I think it would depend on the situation, and he doesn't mention much details, apart from his walking out being calm -- not rushing out being upset, in which case I certainly think he should be left alone.. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | tivrfoa: Thanks to <Honza Cervenka> it became a puzzle. lol I played Kg8 but I don't know if this is a win for white because of 59. ... Ra1.
The problem with <Calli>, <Jimfromprovidence> and <4tmac> analysis is that it was made by humans. Does someone has a good program to show the winning sequence? Rybka <zanshin> and Fritz <Domdaniel> played 59. ... Rh2+. Could you show what sequence they would play after 59. Rg8 Ra1?
help us! xD |
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| Jun-07-09 | | zanshin: <tivrfoa> Here is one suggested Rybka sequence after <59.Rg8 Ra1>
click for larger view<60.Nd5+ Kc5 61.Rg5 Kc6 62.Nb4+ Kb6 63.Rg7 Kc5 64.Rb7> 
click for larger viewEval here is +6.3 and I think the pawn Queens forcing Black to give up his Rook. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | tivrfoa: thanks a lot <zashin>. =) |
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Jun-07-09
 | | Domdaniel: <tivrfoa> after 59 ... Ra1 60.Nd5+ Kc5 61.Rg5 white is clearly winning, eg 61 ... Kc4 62.Nc7, or 61 ...Kd6 62.Nb4. It turns out that there are several ways to indirectly protect the a-pawn: forks and skewers, mainly. Whatever defence black chooses, white will either drive the rook away, penetrate with his king, or create a mating net that costs black his rook. On my own I couldn't be 100% certain that nothing works for black, but this is one of those positions where you can have faith in the silicon verdict. That doesn't mean just taking its evals on trust, but working through each line to ensure there are no loopholes. There aren't. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | johnlspouge: Sunday (Insane):
Kramnik vs Kasparov, 2000 (59.?) White to play and win.
Material: R+N+P vs. R. The Black Kb6 has 4 legal moves. The White passed Pa6 has Nc7 to support a8=Q, so White’s problem is to clear the stop square a7. White has a long-term mate threat if his R checks on the b-file, e.g., [1] Rb8+ Ka7 (to maintain the stop square a7, but an error) [2] Rb7#
The mate pattern is common enough, but I do not know a name. Strategically, White wants to get his N to support Pa6 from behind and then move his K closer to a8, bridging with the R+N to protect against checks from the opposing R if necessary. Candidates (59.): Rg8
59.Rg8
(threatening 60.Rb8+ Ka7 61.Rb7# or 60…Kc6 or Kxc7 61.a7 62.a8=Q) 59…Ra1
If Black harasses the White K with lateral checks, the K just heads to the 8-th rank to join the party and win, so Black must get behind the passed Pa6. 60.Nd5+
(threatening 61.Nb4, with a stable position to advance the P) 60…Kc5 [Kxa6 61.Ra8+ K any 62.Rxa1]
[60…Kb4 61.Rb8+ K any 62.Nb4] [60…Ka5 61.Pa7]
61.Rg5 (threatening 62.Kb2 63.Kb3 64.Nb4 or 62.Kb3)
(1) Capture of Pa6 fails:
61…Rxa6 62.Nc7+ 63.Nxa6
Black must keep contact with b4, to prevent Nb4
(2) 61…Kb5 62.Kb2 Ra5 [Ra4 63.Nc3++]
63.Nc7+ 64.Rxa5 65.a7 66.a8=Q
(3) 61…Kc4 62.Nc7
The Black Kc4 is cut off from Pa7. Black cannot prevent Rb5-b7 then Pa6-a7-a8=Q, which wins regardless of captures. Well, according the game annotations, so far, so good. I will be interested in the kibitzing, but I am not sure of my fantasies today. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | johnlspouge: < <dzechiel> wrote: [snip] I'm certain someone else will publish all the details. [snip] > Did you have anyone in mind, David?
I was depending on you :) |
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| Jun-07-09 | | jhoro: as unbelievable as it sounds to me, i saw 59.Rg8 in less than a minute. i considered 59.Kb2 in order to stop Ra1, but going away from the black rook does not stop the checks so i discarded it (unlike Kram who went for it =) so what comes after 59.Rg8 ? taking the knight 59... Kxc7 leads to promotion. white has the threat of 60.Rb8+ and the only good defensive move seems to be 59...Ra1. i had no idea how to respond to that. apparently the right sequence is 59.Rg8 Ra1 60.Nd5+ Kc5 61.Rg5 and then there are even more moves (besides Nd5+ and Rg5) that i wouldn't be able to find on my own. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | DarthStapler: I didn't get it |
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Jun-07-09
 | | Jimfromprovidence: The best defense after 59 Rg8 is 59…Rh2+.(The following annotation is best or co-best play, courtesy of the Nalimov table bases). The first phase of the solution is the rook and king dance; 60 Kc3 Rh3+ 61 Kd4 Rh4+ 62 Ke5 Rh5+ Kf6 Ra5 (not Rh5+) follows.
click for larger view
Then the hard stuff; 64 Rc8 (only move) Ra4 65 Ke5 Ra1 Nd5+ Ka7 67 Nb4 Re1+ Kd5 Rd1+ Ke4 Re1+ 70 Kd3 Rb1.
click for larger view
Then lesser hard stuff; 71 Rc7+ Kb8 72 Rc4 Rd1+ 73 Kc2 Ra1 74 Kb3 Ka8 75 Rc6 Rb1+ 76 Ka4 Ka7 77 kb5 Kb8 78 Ka5 Rb3 79 Rb6+ Ka7 80 Rb7+ Ka8.
click for larger viewFinally, it looks dire for black. |
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| Jun-07-09 | | totololo: too dificult for me
I think that is a piece of cake for the silicon monster using Natalimov tables... |
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| Jun-08-09 | | CHESSTTCAMPS: I didn't get a chance to post yesterday, so I'd like to post today, late as it is. This is an endgame worth taking some time to understand. I was baffled for a while when it came up, but I finally got an idea of how to proceed. The primary technical problem is that the position of white's knight in front of the a-pawn is less than optimal: it is better to support the passed pawn from behind. But now the knight can't move without giving up the a-pawn, leaving a drawn position. The white king can't seem to improve its position without being subject to endless harrassment from the black rook. But the white R does have a move that makes progress: 59.Rg8!
The threat is 60.Rb8+ Kxc7 (Ka7 61.Rb7#) 61.a7 and black can't stop the a-pawn. Obviously, 59...Kxc7 allows an immediate a7, winning for white. There are only two possibilities for defense - immediately get the rook behind the a-pawn to prevent its
advance or keep checking the white king laterally. Taking each in turn: A. 59...Ra1 60.Kb2 Ra5 (White's plan is to play Nd5+ followed by Nb4 without allowing Kc5.) 61.Rc8! (necessary, but it took me a while to find this) and now: A.1 61...Ra4 62.Kb3 Ra1 63.Ne5+ Kb5 (...Ka7 64.Nb4) 64.Nb4! Ra5 (...Rb1+ 65.Ka2 Rxb4 66.Rb8+ wins immediately) 65.Rb8+ Kc5 66.Rb7 Kd6 (..Ra1 67.Na2 wins) 67.Kc4 Ra1 68.Kb5 and black can do nothing about Kb6 winning. A.1.1 62...Ra5 63.Kb4 Ra1 64.Nd5+ Ka7 65.Kb5 Rb1+ (Rxa6 66.Rc7+ wins) 66.Nb4 Rb2 67.Rc7+ Kb8 68.Rh7 Rb1 69.a7+ Ka8 70.Ka6 Ra1+ 71.Kb6 wins. B. White king approaches the black rook. Eventually black is forced to play R-afile. White plays Rc8! and then walks king back to the a-file eventually forcing black rook to a position where the N can be repositioned to b4, as outlined in variation A. Time to post - a little sloppy. |
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| Jun-08-09 | | SamAtoms1980: Often, the simplest-looking puzzles are the most 'insane.' I actually picked 59 Rg8, but I had no chance to pick up on the rest without Nalimov's help. Yes, that Nalimov, of six-man endgame fame. How frequently is it that a game of chess is clear as day until the time when less than ten pieces remain on the board. The game of chess is devilish in its complexity and whoever it was that invented it so many hundreds of years ago, may God have mercy on his soul. |
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| Jun-08-09 | | njchess: I doubt anyone who has ever seen/studied this game will ever forget it's ending. Kramnik plays solidly, simplifying throughout, defends well and then, with the game in hand, blows the endgame. |
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| Nov-15-09 | | kooley782: It's too bad we don't see such great games from Kramnik like this (other than the missing of Rg8). It seems that from the WCC 2008 and onward, he's lost ambition. Maybe that changed at the Tal Memorial, but maybe not. |
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| May-02-11 | | wordfunph: game sidelight..
"To be honest, I did have a little brandy after the game." - Vladimir Kramnik (after drawing with white in 4th game) |
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| Feb-07-16 | | The Kings Domain: A miracle indeed. Poor play by Kasparov and a wasted opportunity by Kramnik on the 59th move. |
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Feb-08-16
 | | offramp: I always think of this game as a modern reincarnation of Lasker vs Ed. Lasker, 1924. |
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Sep-25-16
 | | plang: The position after 8..Bxc5 may look innocuous but White does have a lead in development. 16 Kf2 had been played in the draw Bareev-Rublevsky 1996 Russian Ch.; 16 Nd2 was Kramnik's improvement. Kramnik's clever kingside pawn storm led to a strong White initiative. 25..Rc2?! led to complications very favorable for White; Kasparov should have defended patiently with 25..Ke8 26 Nfd4..Rc7 27 f5..exf 28 exf..Nge5 29 Bf4 though White would have retained a clear advantage. Fritz showed that 44 Nc5+..Kc6 45 Ra6! would have set up a decisive discovered check but Kramnik thought that this is not a move that many humans would find. Kasparov spent 40 minutes on 46..Re3?, 46..Be3 would have been a tougher defense. 54 Nd5 would have been an improvement with the idea of protecting the pawn with the knight from behind. Except for the double blunder near the end (in severe time pressure for both players) this was really an exceptional struggle. Games 2-4 are really championship chess at the highest level. |
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| Jun-18-18 | | Omnipotent00001: 54...Re5 draws |
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