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Alejandro Needleman vs Alfredo Cordero
American Continental (2003), Buenos Aires ARG, rd 9, Aug-27
Rat Defense: See also: Modern Defense (for lines with ...g6) (A41)  ·  1-0



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sac: 33.Rxd7+ PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

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Kibitzer's Corner
Sep-19-23  Brenin: A hanging Q deserves to be plucked: 44 Rd8+ Kxd8 (or Ke7) 45 Bg5+ and 46 Qxe4.
Sep-19-23  Mayankk: My first instinct was that an immediate 44 Bg5 should suffice since 44 ... Qxg4 leads to an instant 45 Rd8#. But Black can prolong a losing game by 44 ... Qa8 45 Rd8+ Qxd8 etc.

So we flip the move order and go 44 Rd8+, followed by 45 Bg5+ and 46 Qxe5. Better.

Premium Chessgames Member
  perfidious: Embarras de richesse; White can play 44.Bg5, when the abject 44....Qa8 45.Rd8+ Kxd8 46.Bxd8 Kxd8 is winning, but the immediate 44.Rd8+ is cleaner.
Sep-19-23  King.Arthur.Brazil: This problem isn't easy, since it has important details. Even though is possible 44. Bg5 (Qxg4 45. Rd8#) Qa8 45. Qd4?! Nd5 46. Nxd5 exd5... W attack seems weak, so: 45. Rd8+ Qxd8 46. Bxd8 Kxd8 47. Qg5+ (Be7? 48. Qg7 Rf8 49. h7) Ke8 48. Ng4 Nd5... and doesn't seem a good position for W.

Therefore, the correct line will be: 44. Rd8+ [Ke7? 45. Bg5+ f6 46. Bxf6+ Kf7 47. Qxe4...] Kxd8 45. Bg5+ (Be7 46. Bxe7+ or f6 46. Bxf6+) Ke8 46. Qxe4 and really win.

Sep-19-23  saturn2: 44.Bg5 threatens two things. Black has to give Q for B+R and then the h pawn becomes the winner.
Sep-19-23  mel gibson: I chose the text ply within 10 seconds.

Stockfish 16 doesn't agree.

44. Bg5

(44. Bg5 (Bf4-g5 Qe4-a8 Qg4-d4 Bf8-e7 Bg5xe7 Rh8xh6 Be7-h4 Ke8-f8 Qd4-g4 a7-a5 Qg4-g5 Rh6-g6 Qg5-e7+ Kf8-g8 Rd1-d8+ Qa8xd8 Qe7xd8+ Kg8-h7 Bh4-f6 Rg6-g8 Qd8-d4 Rg8-g7 Qd4-h4+ Kh7-g8 Bf6xg7 f7-f5 Bg7-f6 Nb6-d5 Ne3xd5 f5-f4 Qh4-g5+ Kg8-f8 Qg5-g7+ Kf8-e8 Qg7-e7+) +M18/65 373) 1-0

White wins _ mate in 18.

If I force SF to play the text ply, Black is still in huge trouble - it's a Rook swapped for Black's Queen.

44. Rd8+

Kxd8 (Ke8xd8 Bf4-g5+ Kd8-c8 Qg4xe4 Kc8-b8 h6-h7 Bf8-a3 Bg5-f6 Rh8-c8 Qe4-h4 Nb6-d7 h7-h8Q Rc8xh8 Bf6xh8 Kb8-c7 Ne3-c4 a7-a6 b5xa6 Ba3-c5 Qh4-h7 f7-f5 e5xf6/ep Kc7-c6 Qh7-e4+ Kc6-b5 f6-f7 Nd7-b6 a6-a7 Bc5xf2+ Kg1-g2 Nb6-d7 Qe4xe6 Nd7-b6 Qe6xb6+ Bf2xb6) -35.11/32 379 1-0

score for Black -35.11 depth 32.

Premium Chessgames Member
  agb2002: White has two extra pawns.

The black queen is defenseless. Hence, 44.Rd8+ Kxd8 (44... Ke7 45.Bg5+ f6 46.Bxf6+ Kf7 47.Qxe4 is even worse) 45.Bg5+ Be7 46.Bxe7+ Kxe7 47.Qxe4 wins decisive material.

The alternative 44.Bg5 Qa8 (44... Qxg4 45.Rd8#) 45.Rd8+ (45.Qd4 is interesting) 45... Qxd8 46.Bxd8 Kxd8 47.h7 Rxh7 (due to Qg8) 48.Qg8 Rh3 (48... Rh5 49.Qxf8+ Kd7 50.Qxf7+ and 51.Qxh5) 49.Kg2 seems to win even more material.

Sep-19-23  stacase: White's Bishop wants to say "Check" What does White need to do in order to make that happen?
Sep-19-23  TheaN: As I took more time I got more and more convinced <44.Bg5> is slightly better than 44.Rd8+ Kxd8 45.Bg5+. The only real way Black has to protect against mate is <44....Qa8>, and <45.Rd8+ Kxd8 46.Bxd8> seems like a worse trade for White, of Black takes the Bishop then <46....Kxd8 47.h7 +-> and due Qg8 White will win the piece back with a more active Queen.
Sep-19-23  Brenin: OTB I'd go for the quick, clean kill 44 Rd8+, 45 Bg5+ and 46 Qxe4: Black's moves are forced and he immediately loses his most active piece. In <mel gibson>'s Stockfish line 44 Bg5 Qa8 45 Qd4 Be7 46 Bxe7 Rxh6 Black is threatening mate on h1, forcing 47 Bh4; I'd need to be very confident of my calculations to prefer that line.
Sep-19-23  Lambda: Making it very obvious you're going to have queen vs rook is likely to force a quicker resignation than something which needs Kxd8 to be analysed.
Sep-19-23  TheaN: <Lambda: Making it very obvious you're going to have queen vs rook is likely to force a quicker resignation than something which needs Kxd8 to be analysed.>

This is an interesting take, do we prefer objectively the best move or the practical move? Usually the latter, so with that I agree.

Premium Chessgames Member
  chrisowen: Esa chill quark mob with fun dog Rd8 gab Bg5 its ha cc imbibe c beccy Rd8 co Bg5 and :)
Sep-19-23  Lambda: <This is an interesting take, do we prefer objectively the best move or the practical move?>

In this case, both are objectively best, since there are only three states objectively, "white is winning", "black is winning" and "drawn". Everything else is a matter of how likely it is that a human (or computer) will make a mistake somewhere down the line and transition to what we would understand as a less favourable state based on 32-piece tablebases, if we had them.

Premium Chessgames Member
  PawnSac: As mentioned.. Bg5 is a move, but ..Qa8 Rd8+ Qx Bx Kx gives up the R + B for Q, when it is better to play Rd8+ directly then Bg5+ so that if f6 or Be7 white continues Bx+ and only gives the R for Q.

It is usually always good to consider alternate move orders look for; * the most forceful path
* tempo gains
* subtle nuances that gain extra material,
* or the strongest moves to eliminate counterplay, and so forth

Sep-19-23  Stanco: Easy peasy 44.Rd8+ 45.Bg5+ 46.Qxe4 capturing black Queen
Sep-19-23  TheaN: <PawnSac: as mentioned.. Bg5 is a move, but ..Qa8 Rd8+ Qx Bx Kx gives up the R + B for Q, when it is better to play Rd8+ directly then Bg5+ so that if f6 or Be7 white continues Bx+ and only gives the R for Q. >

Yeah and that's the point, that's not true: 44.Bg5 Qa8 (else Rd8#/Qxe4) 45.Rd8+ Qxd8 46.Bxd8 Kxd8 47.h7 Rxh7 (else also Qg8) 48.Qg8 +- is objectively superior (though the actual mate will differ by only a few moves):

click for larger view

Black loses almost the entire board here after Qxf8+ and Qxf7+. SF actually suggests to give the rook here for +17. The Rd8+ line gives +14. Moot differences, as it's both 1-0 in one. Something about roads and Rome I guess.

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