Members · Prefs · Laboratory · Collections · Openings · Endgames · Sacrifices · History · Search Kibitzing · Kibitzer's Café · Chessforums · Tournament Index · Players · Kibitzing
Gioachino Greco vs NN
Miscellaneous game (1620), ?, rd 15
Russian Game: Damiano Variation. Kholmov Gambit (C42)  ·  1-0



explore this opening
find similar games 88 more Greco/NN games
sac: 8.Nc3 PGN: download | view | print Help: general | java-troubleshooting

TIP: You can get computer analysis by clicking the "ENGINE" button below the game.

PGN Viewer:  What is this?
For help with this chess viewer, please see the Olga Chess Viewer Quickstart Guide.


Kibitzer's Corner
Nov-20-04  Jaymthegenius: Greco has really duped this patzer! You have to give NN credit, as this is 400 years before petrov
Nov-20-04  SBC: .

The Petrov Defense was named after Alexander Petrov (the correct spelling, I've been told, of Petroff) - 1794-1867

...and not after Vladimir Petrov, the 20th centruy player who died during WWII. - 1908-1943

This game was played about 200 years before Petroff presented his analysis (in 1832) of the opening that bears his name. (even if it had been the later Petrov, it would have been only 300 years).

I think more credit would have to be given to Greco who also pre-dated the analysis, yet who could see many of its tactical elements than to the NN who apparently couldn't.


Oct-20-05  DeepBlade: Nice fork, I love the way Greco fixes the fork after ''forcing'' the Queen to take the Bishop.
Feb-15-06  prinsallan: Yeah, the triple fork is beautiful. The setup of the fork is even better.
Nov-07-08  patzer of patzers: at 13. Be3, the Queen was dead no matter what, but I think it would have been better if NN hadn't let it mess with his castling rights.

Not that I wouldn't resign if I were playing a Queen down, with two minor pieces undeveloped, and the other one pinned.

Dec-07-08  patzer of patzers: I'll probably take that back. Who needs castling when you can get a bishop?
May-23-09  WhiteRook48: 13 Be3!
Aug-26-09  WhiteRook48: Petrov disputed "White should win if he plays the best moves"
Oct-22-09  Wayne Proudlove: Wow, I am so hooked on watching these short games of Greco! They've totally changed my outlook. It's like when you fall for a woman and can't remember what you were like before meeting her.
Oct-22-09  MaxxLange: NN held on as long as he could. Leave him alone!
Aug-30-11  ColeTrane: how NOT to play as black, but really pretty anyways
Premium Chessgames Member
  Ziryab: Remarkably, this game is identical to one attributed to Damiano, except that Greco's is one move longer. Of course, none of Greco's games were from actual play, but were constructed to instruct. Nor were his constructions necessarily original.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Nightsurfer: Hello dear <Ziryab>, thank you for pointing out to the fact that this game here <Gioachino Greco vs NN, 1620> "... is ..." almost "... identical to one attributed to Damiano ...", and you are probably thinking of P Damiano vs NN, 1497!

Therefore one can safely assume that <Gioachino Greco> has probably copied the foregoing game P Damiano vs NN, 1497 since that very game P Damiano vs NN, 1497 has been played 123 years before this game here <Gioachino Greco vs NN, 1620>, please compare the corresponding assessment that has been published on April 18th, 2012, by the author of these lines here, namely by <nightsurfer> . :-)

Apr-19-12  thomastonk: <Ziryab: Of course, none of Greco's games were from actual play, ...> You are generally right, but there are probably a few exceptions.

Please have a look at this game: NN vs Greco, 1620. It is quite untypical for the collections Greco made, and I have read that it appeared only once.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Nightsurfer: Hello <thomastonk>, I think that you have got a point - by suggesting that this game here <Gioachino Greco vs NN, 1620> might not be a fabrication but that this game here <Gioachino Greco vs NN, 1620> might have been the result of a real encounter on a real board.

And the fact that this game here <Gioachino Greco vs NN, 1620> looks similar to P Damiano vs NN, 1497 does NOT PROVE that <Maestro G.Greco> might just have copied the foregoing game P Damiano vs NN, 1497 that has been played for real 123 years ago at Rome.

This game here <Gioachino Greco vs NN, 1620> might just have been a replay of P Damiano vs NN, 1497 - and that could have happened that way that <Maestro G.Greco> had probably studied the foregoing game P Damiano vs NN, 1497 (since the foregoing game P Damiano vs NN, 1497 had been played 123 years ago, therefore it is safe to assume that <Maestro G.Greco> had known the matrix of the foregoing game) and that he had chosen his moves according to the foregoing game P Damiano vs NN, 1497 whilst <Maestro G.Greco>'s opponent had not known the foregoing game P Damiano vs NN, 1497, thus <Maestro G.Greco>'s opponent had committed the same blunders as the Commander-in-chief of Black army 123 years ago at Rome.

Corresponding cases of stunning replays are more likely than one might assume. Just have a look at the rather crazy case of the game R Gralla vs S Stojanovic, 2008 that has been (more or less) a funny replay of Morphy vs Duke Karl / Count Isouard, 1858 - exactly 150 years (!) post festum! :-)

Jan-18-18  Sergash: It seems that this is the oldest written game in which we see the Petroff Defense, though I am sure it was played even 100 years earlier than that! It is so natural and logical: White attacks Black's 'e' pawn and Black replies by doing the same! Basic symmetry.

Since the game G Perigal vs Saint Amant, 1843, we know the stronger move 5...d6! instead of <5...Nxe4?!> which is called the Damiano variation because, I assume, Damiano mentioned it in his book?

<6...f6??> is a losing move. Black had to play 6...dxe5 7.dxe5 Nc6 ⩲ Kholmov vs A Belousov, 1974

<7.f4?> Here, Greco missed a very strong opportunity. White gets a winning position after 7.Nc3! dxe5 8.Nd5! (D. Hoffman vs. B. J. Fernandez, Boca Championship (Brazil) 1997, round 1, 1-0) Qf7 9.dxe5 f5 10.e6! Bxe6 11.Nxc7! Qxc7 12.Qxe6+ Qe7 13.Bc4+- Stockfish 8 - 64 bits POPCNT.

<7...Nd7?! 8.Nc3! ±> Better is 7...dxe5! (David Pires Tavares Martins (1802) vs. Oliver Rey Estevez, 18th Burgas Open in Ourense (Spain) 2009, round 1, 1-0) 8.dxe5! Qb4+ 9.Qxb4 Bxb4+ 9.c3 Bc5 10.exf6 Kf7!? (or 10...gxf6 11.b4 Bb6 ±) 11.fxg7 Re8+ 12.Kd1 Nc6 ± Stockfish 8 - 64 bits POPCNT.

<8...dxe5? 9.Nd5!+-> Better is 8...fxe5 9.fxe5 (or 9.dxe5) dxe5 10.Nd5 Nf6▢ 11.Nxe7 Nxe4 12.Nxc8 Rxc8 13.Bd3 Nf6 14.dxe5 Nd5 (14...Nd7 15.0-0 ±) 15.Rf1 ± Stockfish 8 - 64 bits POPCNT.

<9...Qd6?> After this move, Black's position is hopeless. Better is 9...f5 10.Qd3! Qd8+- Stockfish 8 - 64 bits POPCNT.

Sep-22-18  Yigor: It just repeats the game Damiano-NN (1497), gid=1336243.
Premium Chessgames Member
  Ziryab: The ideas in this game are found in Lucena and the Göttingen MS, both of which likely precede Pedro Damiano. Greco likely copied it from Polerio, who sought to improve on analysis he knew from Damiano’s published text, where the move order differs from the game referenced here.

NOTE: Create an account today to post replies and access other powerful features which are available only to registered users. Becoming a member is free, anonymous, and takes less than 1 minute! If you already have a username, then simply login login under your username now to join the discussion.

Please observe our posting guidelines:

  1. No obscene, racist, sexist, or profane language.
  2. No spamming, advertising, duplicate, or gibberish posts.
  3. No vitriolic or systematic personal attacks against other members.
  4. Nothing in violation of United States law.
  5. No cyberstalking or malicious posting of negative or private information (doxing/doxxing) of members.
  6. No trolling.
  7. The use of "sock puppet" accounts to circumvent disciplinary action taken by moderators, create a false impression of consensus or support, or stage conversations, is prohibited.
  8. Do not degrade Chessgames or any of it's staff/volunteers.

Please try to maintain a semblance of civility at all times.

Blow the Whistle

See something that violates our rules? Blow the whistle and inform a moderator.

NOTE: Please keep all discussion on-topic. This forum is for this specific game only. To discuss chess or this site in general, visit the Kibitzer's Café.

Messages posted by Chessgames members do not necessarily represent the views of, its employees, or sponsors.
All moderator actions taken are ultimately at the sole discretion of the administration.

This game is type: CLASSICAL. Please report incorrect or missing information by submitting a correction slip to help us improve the quality of our content.

Featured in the Following Game Collections[what is this?]
Another great response to 2...Nxe4
from who's favorite games by who
easy win + others
by hartkoka
Russian Game: Damiano, Kholmov Gambit (C42) 1-0 More copycat
from 115 Movies FTB Watched at the Drive-in wRobinEv by fredthebear
AniamL's favorite games 2
by AniamL
from Traps by MorphyMatt
Oh not again
from Яяoи caяa by CharlieLuciano
Il Greco
by Runemaster
nightgaunts Traps & Minis
by nightgaunts
Game collection: 3
by gr2ca1
Russian Game: Damiano, Kholmov Gambit (C42) 1-0 More copycat
from Phillies Open Flame Games by fredthebear
Petrov Line After Nxe, Nxe
from Pet Lines by qauz
by sleepyirv
Greco predates Petroff!
from Qb6's favourite games by Qb6
by lazintata
by tomo6
Il Greco
by Halit4
15 moves
from Chess Miniatures, Collection V by wwall

Home | About | Login | Logout | F.A.Q. | Profile | Preferences | Premium Membership | Kibitzer's Café | Biographer's Bistro | New Kibitzing | Chessforums | Tournament Index | Player Directory | Notable Games | World Chess Championships | Opening Explorer | Guess the Move | Game Collections | ChessBookie Game | Chessgames Challenge | Store | Privacy Notice | Contact Us

Copyright 2001-2023, Chessgames Services LLC