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Gioachino Greco vs NN
Miscellaneous Game (1620), ?, rd 16
Philidor Defense: General (C41)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 4 OF 4 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Feb-20-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  gawain: Saw this instantly. Nevertheless, my vote is for keeping Monday and Tuesday puzzles easy! Chess ideas can be entertaining without being subtle.
Feb-20-07  Stonewaller2: <CodeZero> After 19. ♗xf7+? ♖xf7 20. g6 Black has time for a move such as 20. ... ♗f6 after which 21. ♕h7+ ♔f8 22. ♕h8+ doesn't mate due to 22. ... ♔e7. As <Simplification> points out, after 19. g6, 20. ♗xf7+ and other alternatives all lead to mate.

Poor NN, he's been being clobbered by masters and grandmasters since at least the 17th Century . . .

Feb-20-07  CodeZero: < YouRang: Sorry, but after 17. Bxf7+, black plays 17...Rxf7, and white has nothing. (Remember that white's queen is under attack.) >

Not 17. Bxf7+ but 19. Bxf7+, after the correct 2 moves of the combo. It's kind of pointless since I just delayed g6 by a move, I just wondered if what I had still worked:

... 19.Bxf7+ Rxf7 20. g6 (pick a move) 21. Qh7+ Kf8 22. Qh8#

Feb-20-07  YouRang: Black is lost of course, but rather than the lame 19...Re8 (which delays mate 1 move, but doesn't make the mate any less obvious), black might have tried 19...Ng2+. This way, black might at least *hope* for a blunder:

20. Kd2? Bg5+
21. Kd1 Bh6!

- OR -

20. Ke2? Nf4+
21. Kd1 Nxh5

Of course, 20. Kf1 or 20. Kd1 wins.

Feb-20-07  YouRang: <CodeZero><19.Bxf7+ Rxf7 20. g6 (pick a move) 21. Qh7+ Kf8 22. Qh8#>

Sorry, I committed a reading blunder with your earlier post.

However, in your line, Black's 20th could be a bishop move (20...Bf6, ...Bg5 or ...Bh4), which gives the black king an escape square at e7. You can recapture the rook (21. gxf7), but it looks like you remain down a piece.

Feb-20-07  YouRang: Oh, I see <Stonewaller2> already pointed this out. Now I've committed both a reading blunder and a redundancy blunder. :-(
Feb-20-07  Themofro: Got this no problem, if you know the mating pattern of pawn on g6 with queen then the only tricky part is realizing that the seemingly outta the way bishop pins the pawn so that g6 can be played.
Feb-20-07
Premium Chessgames Member
  fm avari viraf: When the h file is open & the f pawn is pinned most of the games are won. Here, White clears the square by sacrificing his Rook so that his Queen can give check & the rest is beauty.
Feb-20-07  vibes43: <gawain: Saw this instantly. Nevertheless, my vote is for keeping Monday and Tuesday puzzles easy! Chess ideas can be entertaining without being subtle.> Also, those with the time can study the whole game. There's more to be gained than just solving the puzzle. Where did the loser go wrong? In what move did the winner consider the outcome (both usually before the puzzle move). If I had a vote, it would be to keep as-is.
Feb-20-07  coolbob: This was mush easier than yersterday's puzzle
Feb-20-07  vibes43: Perhaps CG could, within the opening puzzle page, point out the key move number made by the winner which led to the puzzle position. Then, without looking at the puzzle position, those who wish more of a challange, could click on that earlier position and attempt to solve from that point.
Feb-20-07  wals: Attacked on the wings? Counter attack in the centre. 11....d5 would have given NN a fighting chance. O the benefit of 407 years experience.
Feb-20-07  TheSlid: Made up game, I suspect. Too contrived for a twenty past four in the afternoon game.

Liked the puzzle - nice and intuitive - Spassky's win against Larsen was not the first time a whole rook was sacrificed for a single tempo.

Feb-20-07  TheSlid: This is the game I refer to

Larsen vs Spassky, 1970

Feb-20-07  Stonewaller2: <YouRang>, take some comfort in the fact that at least you're not NN. Seems on average he only wins one chess game every 11 5/9 years:

NN
Number of games in database: 741
Years covered: 1590 to 2006
Overall record: +36 -551 =26 (8.0%)*

Feb-20-07  YouRang: <vibes43><There's more to be gained than just solving the puzzle. Where did the loser go wrong? In what move did the winner consider the outcome (both usually before the puzzle move). If I had a vote, it would be to keep as-is. >

Good post.

<Perhaps CG could, within the opening puzzle page, point out the key move number made by the winner which led to the puzzle position. Then, without looking at the puzzle position, those who wish more of a challange, could click on that earlier position and attempt to solve from that point. >

In many cases (such as this game) this idea isn't possible, because the puzzle position arises from unsound play by the opponent.

For example, in this game, NN could have done better than 16...Nxe3??, setting up the forced mate. (Granted, black was already worse off by then).

Feb-20-07  YouRang: <Stonewaller2> Maybe chessgames.com should provide a <NN> feature for posting. That way, if you submit a dumb post, you can go back and have have it attributed to NN instead of your own ID (as an alternative to deleting it).

I would make my last two posts to <CodeZero> from NN. ;-)

Feb-20-07  EmperorAtahualpa: Piece of cake, this one. :)
Feb-20-07  MindlessOne: Easy puzzle! I've been working alot on these tpes of problems lately and I spotted it instantly. There are four distinct pieces in the work here and it is easy to decide how to continue. One of the first thing I always look at is either a rook or queen sac because they seem to occur quite frequently. All the pieces work together in this problem.
Feb-20-07  LPeristy: I liked this puzzle. Easy, yet subtle.
Feb-20-07  MostlyAverageJoe: This was a good puzzle for my 6-year old. Took him almost 2 minutes to figure it out...
Feb-20-07  vibes43: <YouRang: <vibes43><There's more to be gained than just solving the puzzle. Where did the loser go wrong? In what move did the winner consider the outcome (both usually before the puzzle move). If I had a vote, it would be to keep as-is. > Good post.

<Perhaps CG could, within the opening puzzle page, point out the key move number made by the winner which led to the puzzle position. Then, without looking at the puzzle position, those who wish more of a challange, could click on that earlier position and attempt to solve from that point. >

In many cases (such as this game) this idea isn't possible, because the puzzle position arises from unsound play by the opponent.

For example, in this game, NN could have done better than 16...Nxe3??, setting up the forced mate. (Granted, black was already worse off by then).>

True but 16.Rxh5! was also a good move suckering NN into 16....Nxe3+??. I wouldn't have turned that down that free Bishop w/ check either. But thats much more difficult to see than 17. Rxh8+. Some want that challange and it wouldn't take much more to offer both move 17 for us less experienced or move 16 for those who solve all Mon./Tue. puzzles in 2 seconds. I'm just suggesting a starting point for those who want that challange for extra credit. If they can't solve 16 then they can step down to 17 with us mortals.

Aug-05-11  squaresquat: Greco kicked the bishop; Morphy detonated e5.
May-04-12  LoveThatJoker: Guess-the-Move Final Score:

Greco vs NN, 1620.
YOU ARE PLAYING THE ROLE OF GRECO.
Your score: 50 (par = 40)

LTJ

Nov-11-12  S A G A R: After 14.h5 gxh5 , black looses. Besides playing 14.h5 gxh5 , black could have played 14.h5 d5 . Black should realise that, white's move 14.h5 .. is a trap. So dont take that white's h5 pawn, you should block the bishop b3 by 14... d5 .
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