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Gioachino Greco vs NN
Miscellaneous Game (1620), ?, rd 20
Italian Game: Two Knights Defense. Fried Liver Attack (C57)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

FEN COPIED

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Kibitzer's Corner
Feb-01-04  rochade123: 17. Be3 is also mate
Feb-01-04  Catfriend: But b4# is prettier:)

The fried liver is good! The DB gives it huge winning percentage! What's the refutation of this madness?

Feb-01-04  TrueFiendish: 5...Nxd5 has been considered bad for many a long year. Better is a proper Two Knights with ...Na5 or (my favourite) ...Nd4.
Feb-22-04  Egghead: Greco overlooked 15.b4+ Kd4 Qf4#. If 15. ... Kxc4 then 16.Qd3#.
Feb-22-04  drukenknight: It looks like black has done quite well w/ moves other than 5...Nxd5 as TF has suggested. This leads to an interesting test of theories of how to play.

Most people bring the K out to the middle leading to the Fried Liver attack, but 7...Qf6 seems to make more chess. sense to me. "Exchange when ahead" seems obvious to me. Encouraging QxQ is an exchange.

"Ahhh but you will lose the N next turn so your theory doesnt work."

Yeah but the interesting thing is, that black hasnt lost the N yet, would it still make sense to exchange. There are only two games in the data base and they both go 8 QxQ gxQf6; both black losses.

BUt I wonder if 8...KxQ makes more sense, since it breaks the pin. (And avoids the B check next move)

So I plugged that into the chesslab machine and a pretty good line emerges (Note this is: 7...Qf6 8 QxQ line)

8...Kxf6
9. Bxd5 Nb4
10. Be4 Bc5
11. a3 Nc6
12. Bxc6 bxc6
13. O-O e4
14. d3 exd3
15. cxd3 Bf5
16. Be3 Bd6
17. Bd4+ Kf7

Feb-23-04  srinivasan: i think black king is setting the example by coming forward to attack?? rather than controlling from safe place.
Jun-14-04  zb2cr: Is this the earliest example of the "Fried Liver Attack" in the chessgames.com DB? I would think so!
Jul-15-04  Jesuitic Calvinist: zb2cr - Polerio v Domenico 1610 is earlier.
Jan-10-05  lronTigran: After 7. ... Qf6 black is simply a pawn down without compensation. It simply doesn't work, especially since you exchanged queems. Two knights defence itself is a very pointless opening: 1. You have to learn a lot of theory (Max Lange and whatever your defence is). 2. The only point is that you avoid 2 innocuous openings, Evans Gambit and 4. c3. 3. It's pretty much unsound....
Jan-10-05  drukenknight: I dont think so, since black is losing so many games of this what is it to be down a pawn after 17+ moves? Maybe he is on the right track, one can show many endgame positions were being up a pawn is still a draw. Perhaps that is a starting pt. upon which to look upon this defense, of such strange ideas sometimes good ideas come out of.
Jan-11-05
Premium Chessgames Member
  beatgiant: <drukenknight>:
On 7...Qf6, White would probably gain tempo with 8. Bxd5+ first. The two-pawn gambit with 8...Be6?! 9. Bxc6 bxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd6 11. Nc3 looks dubious, and so does the ending after 8...Ke8 9. Qxf6 gxf6 10. Bxc6+.

I think you have to look elsewhere to improve this opening.

Jan-11-05  acirce: What's wrong with the usual 7..Ke6 8.Nc3 Nb4 ? White has no obvious way to show he's got any advantage at all, much less winning. That's why 6.d4! is so much better, for example 6..exd4 7.0-0 preparing the Nxf7 idea in an improved version.
Jan-11-05  InspiredByMorphy: <acirce> Good point regarding 6.d4 Blacks best response is to probably develop a piece with 6. ...Be7 as in the following game. Black plays the novelty move 9. ...Nxd4 shortly thereafter and achieves as good as a result as one could hope for in my opinion. I Veinger vs O Brook, 1986
May-26-05  Jaymthetactician: That opening by Greco isnt sound! misplacing the knight and lagging development, Greco's rating nowaday's would be 1200-1500 (maybe less), while NN is anywhere from 500-1100. He play's refuted Latvian and wing gambit's. and 1.e4,e5 2.f4,f5?? loses immediately, white win's with best play, have a shootout from this position with a computer, white is .90 better with 3. exf5 e4 4. Nc3 Nf6
5. Bc4 Nc6 (the best move, but still an advantage for white),

as Qh4+
4. g3 Qe7
5. Qh5+ Kd8
6. fxe5 Qxe5+
7. Ne2 Nf6 is much better for white then my analyis, I give the best moves here, now on the 4.Ng5 game, Now whites knight sacrifice is unsound, because after 7.Qf3+,Ke6 8.Nc3,Ncb4 9.0-0

Nov-27-05  Chopin: The good old Fried Liver attack!.
Nov-27-05  KingG: <Greco's rating nowaday's would be 1200-1500 (maybe less)> LOL. Yeah, i see 1500 players play like Greco all the time.
Nov-01-08
Premium Chessgames Member
  gambitfan: 9 0-0 ? seems to be a mistake because it is a loss of time.

Since White are a ♘ back, a tempo is far too precious to be wasted...

9... c6 10 ♖e1 logical

10... ♗d7?? looks very bad : brings nothing and the ♗ "cuts" the influence of their ♕

Better was 10... ♘g6 to reinforce the protection of ♙e5 newly attacked all the more since the nevralgic ♘d5 was attacked 3 times and defended 4 times ; one of the defensors could now be affected to the defense of ♙e5

Jul-02-09  freshblood: what do you think for 11.Rxe5 instead of 11.d4 ? if it takes rook black will be mated after few moves by d4 response
Sep-04-11  meppi: ^^^^ 10. d7 is not good you are correct.
I play this black defense all the time at my club many people know up to move Qf3+ and Nc3 as winning. But do not know accurate continuations after that.

On move 10. there are 3 better moves for black that keep the game going good for them.

MOVE 10. b5

Move 10. Qb6

Move 10. Kd6

up until move 10 black was ok. Fried liver in this form with Nxf7 before d4 is good. Black can win those games with accurate play (defend d5) sometimes sacrificing the e pawn is necessary. Also believe it or not black can get alot of vicious counterattacks in these lines.

Jan-14-12  Rosbach: Nxd5 isn't good, b5 would have been better as I know too well. Recently played a game with moves 1-9 (sadly as Black).
Mar-30-13  Whitehat1963: What a great game to illustrate the Opening of the Day.
Jan-03-15  Ke2: wow, i thought this was an old opening trick, but not this old!
Oct-07-19
Premium Chessgames Member
  sea7kenp: So they were Frying Livers, back in 1620?
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