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Gioachino Greco vs NN
Miscellaneous game (1620), ?, rd 30
Owen Defense: General (B00)  ·  1-0



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Oct-15-04  sneaky pete: Augustus Mongredien introduced 1... g6 2... Bg7 3... b6 etc in the 1862 London tournament. In Steinitz vs Mongredien, 1863 Steinitz demonstrates how to tackle this system with a small centre.

Still, Greco's broad centre is possible as well. After 9... Ng4 white can choose between 10.Qe2 Nb4 11.Bb1 .. and 10.Bd2 Nb4 11.Bb1 .. followed by the a knight chase (11... d6 12.a3 .. etc).

Oct-16-04  Jaymthegenius: So I guess the first hypermodern innovation is with this NN guy, but Mongredien is the REAL founder of the revolution.
Nov-09-04  Jaymthegenius: Here is proof I could defeat Greco, as I have faced a much tougher opponent then Greco did. This game is VERY similiar to Greco's in the begginning.

Title: Yahoo! Chess Game
;White: jaymthegenius
;Black: cmb113048
;Date: Mon Nov 08 16:56:25 GMT 2004

1. e4 b6
2. d4 Bb7
3. Bd3 e6
4. c4 c6
5. Nc3 d5
6. b3 Nd7
7. Be3 Bb4
8. Qc2 Bxc3+ (trying to remove a critical defender, but his other bishop is VERY bad, as it is hemmed in to the extreme) 9. Qxc3 a6
10. f4 Qh4+
11. g3 Qd8
12. e5 b5
13. c5 Ne7
14. Nf3 a5
15. Qc2 O-O (castling may not be wise here, but was anticipated, see below,) 16. Bxh7+ Kh8 ( I thought I had a potential windmill here, but looks like I didnt) 17. Bd3 a4
18. b4 Nf5 (computer suggested bxa4, but that would not be appropriate here) 19. Bxf5 exf5
20. Qxf5 g6
21. Qh3+ Kg8
22. f5 Qe7
23. Bg5 f6
24. Bh6 fxe5
25. Bxf8 Rxf8
26. O-O-O e4 (castling here is more of a matter of getting my rook into the game rather then for the safety of the king) 27. Qh4 Re8
28. fxg6 Qxh4
29. Nxh4 Re6
30. Rhf1 Nf6
31. Rf4 Kg7
32. g4 Kg8
33. Rdf1 Kg7
34. g5 Re8
35. gxf6+ Kg8
36. f7+ Kf8
37. fxe8=R+ Kxe8
38. Rf8+ Kd7
39. R1f7+ Ke6
40. Re8#

This game is a favorite of mine, as I have such a huge pawn center, and it is well supported. Black was very cramped in this game)

Nov-09-04  sneaky pete: <Jaymthegenius> I hesitate to argue with genius, but I can't help feeling even good old NN would easily win against this <cmb113048>.
Nov-19-04  Jaymthegenius: It was once thought that Gioachino Greco knew the absolute best move for any possition, but proof is everywhere on this site that that is not true. Grecos games are very flawed indeed.
Nov-20-04  drukenknight: Jay: it is also possible that NN is simply Greco sitting at the other side of the board. His games maybe flawed by they are very instructional, his games may be viewed as a course in openings and how to spot mistakes and how to exploit them. The winning moves are usually very logical.
Nov-22-04  TheGreatNN: Yes it looks almost certain that this game was Greco's way of demonstrating that it was important to fight for the center; that hypermodern play was no good. I seriously doubt anybody in 1620 played like this.
Feb-18-05  InspiredByMorphy: <Jayme> <Greco's annonymous oppenent gave up a superior and won possition after 9...Ne8, better would be 9...Ng4 10.Bd2,Nb4 11.Bf1> Do you even try and find good moves for white? 9. ...Ng4 10.Qd2 Nxe3 11.Qxe3 Nb4 12.O-O Nxd3 13.Qxd3 and black has a bad bishop on g2 with a cramped position and white has much better development. In my opinion fianchettoing both bishops is almost always weak. You underestimate the strength of whites position.
Apr-30-05  Jaymthegenius: This could have easily transposed from a modern or Nimzo, should be classified under one of those.
May-01-05  Swapmeet: <Jaymthegenius> No...I don't think so.
May-02-05  Jaymthegenius: yes, it could have, for instance


For an example (I know I gave a poor move order, just an example of a transposition)

Also, NN was slightly better, with 9.e5,Ng4 the bishop's get chased.

Jun-14-05  Jaymthetactician: 9...Ng4 and black holds the advantage. Because of 10.Bc2,Nb4 11.Be2,d6.
Jun-16-05  InspiredByMorphy: <Jaym> Your last post makes little sense. After 9. ...Ng4 10.Bc2 Nxe3 winning a piece. Therefore I think you meant 9. ...Ng4 10.Bd2 Nb4 11.Bc2 d6 Please review your notation before posting to alleviate confusion. Furthermore why would white retreat pieces which are already developed if not necessary? 9. ...Ng4 10.Qd2 Nxe3 11.Qxe3 and I wont try and claim whites position is better (although I think it is). I will just say look at development. White has four developed pieces to blacks three. More importantly, whites pieces are controlling the center. Of course you seem to care very little about the center, which is one of the big differences between a classical player like myself, and a hypermodern player like yourself. One can hardly say black holds an advantage after 9. ...Ng4 however.
Jun-18-05  Jaymthetactician: whites pieces are controlling the center. Of course you seem to care very little about the center, which is one of the big differences between a classical player like myself, and a hypermodern player like yourself. One can hardly say black holds an advantage after 9. ...Ng4 however.

perhaps not an outright advantage, but I figured my line gave black a little initiative while opening the diagonals for the bishop's, and white would have to work harder then in the game.

Jun-20-05  InspiredByMorphy: <Jaym> Agreed.
Jun-21-05  Jaymthetactician: What I do like about Greco's play is that he knew the h-pawn thrust is a good weapon against a kingside fianchetto! This is very often seem agaisnt a yugoslav dragon, and sometimes I have novelty's in the Reti vs. a kingside fianchetto formation that involve an h-pawn thrust, as on h5 the g-pawn is faced with a forcing decision, and in my Van Geet CD it talk's about how after 1.Nc3,g6 2.h4!? is a sound move, and two of my games confirm this. (I only play h4 if there is no white kingside fianchetto, otherwise the white squares become very weak around the king and bishop, and I almost alway's go for a double fianchetto, so I dont use the h pawn plan often.)
Jul-08-06  MagnaPsygnosis: This NN.
I am considering <drunkenknights>'s theory as been correct.

NN doesnt play his best. Or even more accurate.. he doesnt play to win.

"NN might be Greco"

here is a killer example:
in this game, why not 15. ... f6

This move avoids checkmate. (or at least gives hope in avoiding it)

Nov-11-06  2021: You should see white's positon after move 8.

Oct-03-07  wolfmaster: <get Reti> It's not symmetrical, just some cool patterns from both sides.
Jan-28-08  wolfmaster: I know that they didn't know anything about it, but NN took far too long to chip away at Greco's center.
Aug-06-08  RoyalFlush: Wow, black seems completely oblivious to the mating threat.
Aug-13-12  LoveThatJoker: Guess-the-Move Final Score:

Greco vs NN, 1620.
Your score: 42 (par = 33)


Oct-06-14  Christoforus Polacco: <sneaky pete>
16....f5 17.Ng5 is better than 17.Qh7+
May-07-17  Yigor: LoL I like this anti-hypermodern 8-men center by Greco (after 8. Nc3)! ;)

PSCC: 2E1b (Owen defense) -> 2DE1b -> 2DE1bg -> 2DEF1bg -> 2CDEF1bg

May-07-17  Yigor: Btw Greco and NN already played Owen defense in the famous game #24 (Matovinsky gambit).
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