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Staunton / Owen vs Morphy / Barnes
Consultation game (1858), London ENG, Jul-??
Philidor Defense: Philidor Countergambit (C41)  ·  0-1



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Aug-27-08  sneaky pete: <whiteshark> Of course! Would you like to see the 2 games Defendarow played blindfolded and simultaneously (or simulating, as D. himself calls it) against Opferaroff <and> Agressewitsch?
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <sneaky pete> I'd really appreciate that. :D
Aug-31-08  sneaky pete: <whiteshark> The other Defendarow games are posted on the pages Dgebuadze vs P Claesen, 2005 and Steinitz vs Rainer, 1885. I noticed you tend to be a bit idiosyncratic, but I'm sure you're not so far gone that you would be interested in games by Bauernfänger, Draufgänger, Naivenski and Uebermütinoff.
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: Thank you <sneaky pete>! I get off lightly with these games for now.

<a bit idiosyncratic> I tend to agree for general considerations. Please remind me for details every now and then. Otherwise it's all <myschkin>'s fault, at least til the end of the year. :D

Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <sneaky pete: <In the game mentioned in my earlier post between Attakinski and Defendarow after 11.Bg5 Bg7 12.e7 Qb6 13.0-0-0 Bd7 14.Qf4 Nf5 15.Bc4 Rh8 16.g4 ...>>

Comrade Hau Ruck (aka h♖) suggested <16.Rhe1 <!!>>

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but he only said <16...h6 17.Qxe4 Bd4 18.Be3 > before he left the session.

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Sep-08-08  sneaky pete:

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16.Rhe1 .. is no doubt very strong. It's called centralisation and smells like a positional concept. Not something to be expected from Attila Attakinski. Why play positional chess when you can attack?

16... h6 17.Qxe4 ..

Now 17... hxg5? is punished by 18.Bf7+ Kxf7 19.Rxd7 .. and if 19... Nxd7 20.Qe6+ Ke8 21.Qxg6#. So to prevent Rxd7 .. black obstructs the d-file.

17... Bd4 18.Be3 ..

This puzzles me. After 18... Bxe3+ 19.fxe3 .. comrade Hau Ruck looks silly on e1. One would rather expect 18.Rxd4 .. with variations 18... Qxd4 19.Qxd4 Nxd4 19.Bf6 ..; 18... Nxd4 19.Bf6 .. or 19.Be3 c5 20.Nd5 ..; 18... hxg5 19.Rxd7 .. etc.

On second thought:

18.Be3 Bxe3+ 19.Rxe3! (A-ha! sagt Meister Gehirnfehlt) 19... Nxe3 (19... Qxe3+ 20.fxe3 Nxe7 21.Qe5 .. doesn't look very inviting either) 20.Qxg6+ Kxe7 21.Qg7+ Kd8 22.Qxh8+ Kc7 23.Qe5+ .

Nov-15-08  JimmyVermeer: According to Staunton's Chessplayers' Handbook (Book 2, Chapter 2, Game 17), Staunton and Owen were playing Black this game. Could it be that Staunton was wrong about a game he himself played? Or is it more likely a printing error?

Anyway, here is a possible faster win for Black.

31 Re7 Be6 32 Rxe6 Rd8 33 Nd5 Rxd5 34 Re8+ Kg7 35 g3 Qc1+ 36 Qg1 Rd1 37 Kh2 Rxg1 38 gxh4 e1Q 39 Re7+ Qxe7 40 Kh3 Qxh4+ 41 Kxh4 Qh6#

Dec-30-09  capatal: Staunton cannot burn Barnes - under Morphy's watchful eye.
Oct-01-10  SirChrislov: A game between 4 players? Is this chaturanga or is this why they called it the romantic era?
Feb-04-11  AnalyzeThis: Maybe computers can now finally give us the verdict on this complex opening. Up to a few years ago, they could not.
Jun-12-12  Anderssen99: The Morphy/Barnes team could have won artistically as follows: 31...,Be6!! (Also good is: 31...,Rd8. 32.Nd7,Rxd7!!. 33.Rxd7,e1=R+. 34.Qg1,Bg3 mate). 32.Rxe6,Rd8. 33.g3,Qc1+. 34.Kg2 (34.Qg1,Rd1),Qf1 mate.
Sep-14-16  Mozart72: A sloppy game indeed. White gave itself a coup de grace with 23.Re4.
Nov-26-16  karrer1: Staunton & Owen vs. Morphy & Barnes, 1858
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6
1 2...d6 3.d4 f5 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5 d5 6.Nc3 c6 7.Ngxe4 1 7.e6 Nh6 8.Ngxe4 dxe4 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qe5 Rg8 11.Bg5* Bg7 12.e7 Qd7 13.Qf4 Qf5 14.Qc7 Be5 15.Qd8+ Kf7 16.Bxh6 Re8 17.O-O-O Be6 18.Qd2 Rxe7 19.Re1 Rd7 20.Qe3 Bd4 21.Qxe4 Na6 22.Bxa6 bxa6 23.Qxc6 Rad8 24.Qxa6 Bxc3 25.bxc3 Bd5 26.Re3 Kg8 27.Rd3 Rb8 28.Qa5 Qe6 29.c4 Bxc4 30.Re1 Qf7 31.Rxd7 Qxd7 32.Qe5 Rc8 33.Rd1 Qb7 34.Qf6 Qc7 35.Bf4 Qb6 36.Qxb6 axb6 37.Kb2 Be6 38.Rd6 Bf5 39.c3 b5 40.Be5 Re8 41.f4 Be6 42.g3 Kf7 43.Ra6 Bc4 44.a4 Re6 45.Ra8 bxa4 46.Rxa4 Rb6+ 47.Kc1 Bd5 48.Ra5 Ke6 49.Kc2 Bb7 50.Kd3 Rb1 51.Ra7 g5 52.c4 gxf4 53.Bxf4 h5 54.Kd4 Bf3 55.Ra6+ Kf5 56.c5 Rb4+ 57.Kc3 Rb5, 58. Be3 Ke4, 59. Bd4, 2 pawns better.

this 11. Bg5 was suggested by Sozin in 1944 as improvement (over 11 Bh6—where Morphy & Barnes went on to win game) and Stockfish agrees. The line from 11. Bg5 is Stockfish’s best play for both.

Nov-27-16  karrer1: so I ran Stockfish a bit deeper (between 20-24 moves deep, evaluations generally around 1.5 in favor of white) & we get a slightly more accurate possibility: 1. e4 e5, Nf3 d6, 3. d4 f5, 4.dxe5 fxe4 5.Ng5 d5 6.Nc3 c6 7.e6 Nh6 8.Ngxe4 dxe4 9.Qh5+ g6 10.Qe5 Rg8 (analysis:) 11.Bg5 Bg7 12.e7 Qd7 13.Qf4 Qf5 14.Qc7 Be5 15.Qd8+ Kf7 16.Bxh6 Re8 17.O-O-O Be6 18.Be2 Bf6 19.Qd2 Nd7 20.Qe3 Bxe7 21.Nxe4 Bd5 22.Bd3 Qe6 23.Rhe1 Kg8 24.Nc3 Qf7 25.Nxd5 cxd5 26.Qf4 Nc5 26...Qxf4+ 27.Bxf4 Bc5 28.f3 Nb6 29.h4 Bf2 30.Rxe8+ Rxe8 31.h5 gxh5 32.Rf1 Bd4 33.Rh1 Nc4 34.b3 Ne3 35.Rxh5 Bc3 36.Bg3 Nxg2 37.Rxd5 Nf4 38.Rg5+ Kh8 39.Bb5 Re5 40.Rxe5 Bxe5 41.Kd2 Kg7 42.Be2 42.Bf2 Bb8 43.Bd7 h5 44.Ke3 Kg6 45.Ke4 Ne2 46.f4 Nc3+ 47.Kf3 Nxa2 48.Be8+ Kf5 49.Bxh5 Bxf4 50.Bg4+ Ke5 51.Bxa7 Bh6 52.Bc5 b5 53.Bd7 Kd5 54.Be7 Nc3 55.Be8 Ke5 56.Bc5 Kd5 57.Be7 Ke5 58.Bc5 Kd5 59.Be7 Ke5 60.Bc5, =.
Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: Wasn't this game played at Staunton's house in Streatham? If so, the address was #2 Leigham Avenue:


I know that road well. It's now dominated by social housing and is full of Third Worlders. Poor Staunton must be spinning in his grave.

Apr-12-18  zanzibar: <I know that road well. It's now dominated by social housing and is full of Third Worlders. Poor Staunton must be spinning in his grave.>

Yeah, you Brits shoulda kept to yourselves instead of colonizing the entire world.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Retireborn: <z> On that note, I've been meaning to ask you what <zanzibar> refers to...the history of that place, especially in relation to Heligoland, should be of interest to critics of British colonialism.
Apr-12-18  zanzibar: Well, <RR/B>, I do have a fondness for most things Z, and Zanzibar as a mythical far away land (especially during winter blizzards).

But there isn't much else in the backstory....


Apr-12-18  RookFile: This really is a brilliant game. It reminds me of the poisoned pawn Siclian. Black's play seems crazy and then he's winning.
Jul-12-18  JPi: I imagine Staunton face after such game. You know I'm very busy...
Premium Chessgames Member
  amadeus: There are some games between Staunton and Barnes/Owen as well: search "staunton vs owen %2F barnes"

Howard Staunton beat Owen / Barnes 4 to 1.

Apr-14-20  Petrosianic: <Kaspablanca: I want somebody explain how this kind of game works, Staunton and Owen consult what move to make or they have to make one move individually?>

<TrueFiendish: Consultation games can and have been conducted either way.>

"Consultation Game" means that the partners literally "consult" with each other, and agree on the move they're going to play.

The kind of chess where each partner makes his move WITHOUT consulting his partner is known as Tandem Chess.

Apr-14-20  Petrosianic: White is doing very well here, probably winning out of the opening, thanks to Morphy's use of that wretched 3...f5 line.

15. Be2? gives Black breathing room. Rd4, threatening Bc4, exchanging material, and getting rid of Black's two Bishops looks much better.

23. Re4?? is where White goes under. He obviously overlooked the power of Kh8-Qg7-Qh6, and has to give up buccu material to stave off the threat. Re4 takes the square away from the Knight which needs to go there to challenge the g3 Bishop. But Black already looks better at this point. The Queen is in danger of getting trapped on a8.

Premium Chessgames Member
  MissScarlett: <Nov-15-08 JimmyVermeer: According to Staunton's Chessplayers' Handbook (Book 2, Chapter 2, Game 17), Staunton and Owen were playing Black this game. Could it be that Staunton was wrong about a game he himself played? Or is it more likely a printing error?>

<The Chess-Player's Handbook> was published in 1847. I suppose you mean his <Chess Praxis> (1860) which was marketed as a supplement to the <Handbook>, but whose main motive was surely to cash in on the Morphy boom. But even in this you're wrong - the respective sides are correctly given.

What is interesting is that Staunton had analysed this Philidor Countergambit (3...f5) in the <Handbook> wherein 12...Qe7 is treated as the main line, having previously been analysed by Bilguer and von der Lasa (see also the Atwood-Wilson games). In <Chess Praxis>, Staunton notes of 12...Qg5 <It may be proper to notice that if Black in the Variation mentioned, "Handbook," pp. 67-68, adopt at move 12 a coup introduced by Mr. Morphy and Mr. Barnes in a game by consultation against the author and Mr. Owen (...), he ought infallibly to lose. In the game referred to White lost merely by a hasty slip at their 17th move when the game was in their hands.>

He goes on to give the <proper continuation> as <13.Qc7 Bxe6 14.Qxb7 e3 15.f3 Qe7 16.Qxa8 Kf7 [as in the game] 17.Rd4> when <I cannot see how Black will save the game.>

Almost needless to say, Stockfish prefers the hasty slip to 17.Rd4 when White has only a nominal advantage.

The suspicion must be that Morphy or Barnes - but especially Morphy - entered this line with the express purpose of playing the counter-attacking 12...Qg5, although, again, the engine prefers the other move, 12....Qe7.

Premium Chessgames Member
  WorstPlayerEver: 22. f4=

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