|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
| Jul-01-11 | | supastarr: it does look like both missed Bc8, but 29 Qe5+ Ka8 30 Rxc8+ Rxc8 31 f4 looks strong (winning?) for white |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | Patriot: White is down a pawn. Black threatens 16...Bxg5, 16...Qxc3, and maybe 16...Nb6. The queen looks to be losing some mobility after 16.Be3. I see a few captures, 16.Bxe7 and 16.Rxd7. 16.Bxe7 Kxe7 doesn't look like much.
16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Rd1+ Ke8 seems to lose steam.
16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Qd1+ Ke8 doesn't make sense.
16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Qd4+ Qxd4 18.Nxd4 - strange.
16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Be3 Qh5 and I would love to get 18.Ne5+ in but 18...Qxe5 spoils everything. I'm just now seeing how this is possible.
16.Be3 Qh5 17.Nd4 hitting the queen and c6.
Probably best is 16...Qxc3.
16.Be3 Qxc3 17.Rac1 Qf6 18.Bg5 Qg6 19.Rxd7 Kxd7 20.Ne5+  16.Be3 Qxc3 17.Rac1 Qf6 18.Bg5 Qf5 19.g4
I think 16.Be3 is best. I'm not seeing any other threats that lead to anything. 16.Rb1 Bxg5 17.Rxd7 or 17.Rxb7 just doesn't seem right. 16.Be3 is a no cost way to put pressure on. Another idea is 16.Be3 Nb6 17.Qg4 Qxc3 18.Bd4 looks menacing. I spent way too much time on this so it's time to see what happened. |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | Patriot: This one is way beyond me. I looked at the same line up to 17.Be3 and after that there are other squares such as f5 and h5 but white could go with 18.Nd4 I suppose to pressure c6. I will really have to look at this further. |
|
Nov-30-13
 | | Benzol: IIRC the position in this game position turned up in Alexander Kotov 's book "Think Like A Grandmaster". Seeing the position years ago I wasn't able to work out what the best move was at that time. |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | Akshay999: Not sure if Kashdan in his lifetime ever realised he missed Bc8 |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | diagonalley: 16. RxN is an obvious candidate, but i'm ashamed to admit i got no further :-( |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | abuzic: 16.Rxd7 Kxd7
A) 17.Be3 Qa3 18.Qd4+ Kc7 19.Bc1 e5 20.Qxe5+ Qd6 21.Qa5+ Kc8: not clearB) 17.Rb1 Rhb8
<17...Rab8 18.Bf4 Bf6> (18...g5 19.Ne5+ Kc8 20.Nxc6 Qxc6 21.Qxc6+ Bxc6 22.Rxb8+ Kd7 23.Rxh8; 18...Qxc3? 19.Qxa7) <19.Nd2! Bxc3 20.Ne4 Qa5 21.Qd1+ Qd5 22.Nxc3> 18.Be3 Qxc3
<18...Qa3 19.Rxb7+ Rxb7 20.Ne5+ Ke8 21.Qxc6+ Kf8 22.Qxb7 Rd8 23.c4> 19.Bd4 Qa3 20.Rxb7+ Rxb7 21.Ne5+ Ke8 22.Qxc6+ Kf8 23.Qxb7 Qc1+ 24.Bf1 Rc8
click for larger view
this looks more forcing leading to 2B+N+P for R+B after 25.Qxa7 or Bxa7 |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | morfishine: I was "Floored" when black "Cashed-in"
(1) 16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Rb1 Rhb8 18.Be3 Qa3 19.Rxb7+ Rxb7 20.Ne5+ Kd6 21.Qxc6+ Kxe5 22.Bd4+ Kf5 23.Bd3+ Kg5 24.Qxb7 Rf8 25.Qb5+ (1a) 17.Be3 Qa3 18.Qd4+ Kc8 19.Qxg7 Rf8 20.Bd4 Qb2 21.Re1 Qxa2 22.Ne5 Qd2 23.Kf1 Qg5 24.Qxh7 Kc7 25.Qc2 Rg8 26.Bf3 c5 27.Nxf7 Qh4 28.Be5+ Kc8 29.Bxb7+ Kxb7 30.Qb3+ Kc6 31.Qxe6+ *****
PM: While 16.Rxd7 appears to be the best candidate, the critical move is therefore move 17 when White has 17.Rb1 or 17.Be3 as in the game ***** |
|
Nov-30-13
 | | FSR: After Flohr's blunder <28.Rd8+?? Bc8!> (instead of 28...Kc7??), White would have had to lose an exchange with <29.Qe5+ Ka8 30.Rxc8+ Rxc8> and now Houdini 3 gives as best <31.g3> (31.f4?! exposes White's king after 31...Qb1+ 32.Kf2 Rb8) <31...Rf8 32.Qd4 Qb3 33.h4 Qb4 34.Kg2 a5 35.Qd7 Qc5> and Black is better (-0.41). |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | morfishine: <Patriot> Yes, a quite involved position; its hard to identify a clear theme other than keeping the position fluid <FSR> Nice post
***** |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | lost in space: Well, I saw the first few half moves but I was far away from solving this puzzle and I doubt I would have played Rxd7 OTB |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | abuzic: <morfishine: I was "Floored" when black "Cashed-in" (1) 16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Rb1 Rhb8 18.Be3 Qa3 19.Rxb7+ Rxb7 20.Ne5+ Kd6> (Best is 20...Ke8), cause now it's mate in 3: 21.Qd4+ Kc7 22.Qd7+ Kb8 23.Nxc6# And in your line
<21.Qxc6+ Kxe5 22.Bd4+ Kf5 23.Bd3+ Kg5> this is forced mate after 24.Be3+ Kf6 25.Qf3+ Ke5 26.Bf4+ Kf6 27.Bd6+ Kg5 28.Qf4+ Kh5 29.g4+ Kh4 30.Qg3+ Kg5 31.Bf4+ Kf6 32.g5#) Even faster would be 23.Qf3+ Kg5 24.h4+ Kxh4 25.Qg3#. |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | gofer: This position is mostly about the loose Bb7 and an uncastled king defending Nd7, but
thae addition of having a queen that can be battered about the board while while
re-organises his pieces into a strong attack is the icing on the cake... <16 Rxd7+ Kxd7+>
<17 Be3 ...>
Before launching an attack on Kd7 (via Pc6) white puts the queen in a bad position and
brings more minor pieces to bare on the king...
17 ... Qxc3 18 Rb1 (offering either Bd4! winning the queen or Rxb7+ ) 17 ... Qf5 18 Nd4 Qe5/Qf6/Qg6/Qc5 19 Rd1
17 ... Qh5 18 Nd4 Qe5/Qg6/Qc5 19 Rd1
~~~
Completely missed the main line... ...Hmmm. |
|
Nov-30-13
 | | Penguincw: I got the pretty obvious 16.Rxd7 Kxd7, but didn't see how 17.Ne5+ would be a good follow... |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | BOSTER: <Patriot I think 16.B e3 is the best>. After this black can play Nb6 17.Qq4 Qf5 18.
Qxg7 Bf6 |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | RandomVisitor: Perhaps white had a slightly better (but hard to find) 15th move:
click for larger view Rybka 4.1 x64:
<[+0.55] d=24 15.Be3> Qxc3 16.Rab1 Nb6 17.Qe4 Qa5 18.Qd4 0-0-0 19.Qxg7 Qh5 20.Qg5 Qxg5 21.Nxg5 Rd7 22.Bh5 Rf8 23.Ne4 Kc7 24.Rfd1 Nd5 25.Bxa7 f5 26.Nc5 Bxc5 27.Bxc5 Ra8 28.Rb2 e5 29.g3 |
|
Nov-30-13
 | | Peligroso Patzer: <supastarr <from Jul-01-11>: it does look like both missed Bc8, but 29 Qe5+ Ka8 30 Rxc8+ Rxc8 31 f4 looks strong (winning?) for white> See comment by <FSR> posted earlier today. Another game between the same opponents played in Hamburg three years earlier (Kashdan vs Flohr, 1930) featured a textbook endgame in which Black (with RP on 7th supported by its King) still loses against Queen plus King (no pawns) due to strong position of White’s K. |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | RandomVisitor: Perhaps white had a slightly better (but hard to find) 13th move:
click for larger view Rybka 4.1 x64:
<[+0.66] d=23 13.Rad1> h6 14.Bh4 0-0 15.Bd3 Qh5 16.Rfe1 b5 17.Qb3 c5 18.d5 exd5 19.Qxb5 Nb6 20.h3 f6 21.Bg3 Bxg3 22.fxg3 dxc4 23.Bxc4+ Nxc4 24.Qxb7 Rfb8 25.Qc6 Re8 26.g4 |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | Patriot: <<BOSTER>: <Patriot I think 16.B e3 is the best>. After this black can play Nb6 17.Qq4 Qf5 18. Qxg7 Bf6> You're right, that's another possibility and there is more beyond that. For instance, perhaps 19.Qg3 Bxc3 20.Bd3 or 20.Nh4. I don't know--there are so many ideas it's hard to say but it doesn't end there. |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | abuzic: <BOSTER: <Patriot I think 16.B e3 is the best>. After this black can play Nb6 17.Qq4 Qf5 18. Qxg7 Bf6>
What about this continuation:
19.Qg3 Nd5 20.Rxd5!
A) 20..exd5 21.Re1! 
click for larger view21...Qg6 22.Bg5 0-0-0 23.Ne5 Bxe5 24.Qxe5 Qd6 25.Bg4+ Kb8 26.Qxd6+ Rxd6 27.Bf4 B) 20...Qxd5 21.Qf4 Bxc3 22.Rd1 Qa5 23.Ng5 0-0 24.Rd7 Qf5 25.Qg3 Qb1+ 26.Bf1 Bg7 <26.Kh8 Bc5> 27.Nxe6
click for larger view |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | mistreaver: Saturday. White to play. Very difficult. 16.?
This position is highly reminiscent to me, like i have seen it somewhere.
Or at least have some idea. We will see if that is indeed so:
16 Rxd7 asks to be played, but how to continue?
16... Kxd7
17 Rd1+ Ke8
Hmm, after some thought i can't find anything concrete here for white, not even a clue of what idea could be,
I don't see how i can distract the black queen and then play Qb4+ and Qxb7
Time to check and see.
-----------------
Wow, amazing combination, after giving an exchange white plays a few "quiet" regrouping moves and then strikes. I was to keen to go with the "patzer sees a check, patzer gives a check" principle. |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | agb2002: White is one pawn down.
Black is probably considering 16... Nb6 followed by O-O. White can keep the black king in the center with 16.Rxd7 Kxd7 17.Rb1 with the idea 17... Rhb8 18.Be3 Qxc3 19.Bd4 Qa3 20.Rxb7+ Rxb7 21.Ne5+ Kd8 22.Qxc6 but I was unable to find a clearly winning continuation after 17... Kc8 or 18... Qf5. |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | PaulBl: What, instead of 28. Rd8? Should he play Qe5? |
|
Nov-30-13
 | | Everett: <Nov-30-13 PaulBl: What, instead of 28. Rd8? Should he play Qe5?> It seems your move and a few others win on move 28;
Qe5, Qc5, f3 all look safe and good. |
|
| Nov-30-13 | | mel gibson: Checked it out in auto play
using Deep Rybka4 64 bit on an i7 quad core with 2 minutes per move.
It ended up by move 26 with a Queen swap & white only 1.53 ahead.
(one & a half pawns ahead )
Not nearly as devastating as first thought.
16 Rxd7 Kxd7
17 Rb1 Rhb8
18 Be3 Qxc3
19 Bd4 Qa3
20 Rxb7 Rxb7
21 Ne5+ Ke8
22 Qxc6+ Kf8
23 Qxb7 Qc1+
24 Bf1 Rc8
25 Bxa7 Qc7
26 Qxc7 Rxc7 |
|
 |
|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
Later Kibitzing> |
Kibitzing
sac: 16.Rxd7