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Siegbert Tarrasch vs Isidor Gunsberg
Manchester (1890), Manchester ENG, rd 4, Aug-27
Spanish Game: Open Variations. Classical Defense Main Line (C83)  ·  1-0

ANALYSIS [x]

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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
May-05-04  myratingstinks: Not to take sides......... but, my rating fluctuates at about 1500-1600 & I saw this move. Although I must add that when you KNOW there is a solution, even the most basic brains can do process of elimination. There are only a certain # of legal moves.......
May-05-04  mikhs: I have seen this comment from FerociousBeast before in axactly the same wording. He must have just copied and pasted it again. My guess is that he uses this just to get a reaction from the rest of you and then sits back and laughs at all the responses. Franklty this is getting boaring and everyone would do better just to ignore him, otherwise he is getting exactly what he wants out of these comments. P.S. I do not think his rating is very high as he cannot even show enough imagination to change his derogatory remarks once in a while.
May-05-04  Vischer: FerociousBeast a 2700-- lol!I think thats one (or two) zeros too many.
May-05-04  JeffM70: FerociousBeast is a troll. Ignore him.
May-05-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: Today's puzzle (12?) is a very good combination for instruction on two basic tactics (i.e. deflection and the pin).

12. Nxe6 is a forcing "deflection" tactic that gives White two simple alternatives to analyze in either 12...exf6 or 12...Qxf6.

If 12...exf6, then 13. Rxe4 takes advantage of the "pin" on the e-file by the White Queen on d1 to win a piece, as the "pinned pawn" on d5 cannot recapture without dropping the Queen for a hopeless material deficit.

If 12...Qxf6, then the simple 13. Rxe4! takes advantage of the pin of the Queen by the Bishop on b3 to win a piece as the "pinned pawn" on d5 cannot recapture without dropping the Queen for a bishop.

White could also win after 12...Qxf6 with 13. Bxd5!? Raa8 14. BxQe6 RxQd1 15. RxRd1 16. fxe6, giving White the exchange and a pawn advantage which should be enough to win, but it is not as effective as the simple 12...Qxf6 13. Rxe4! The definitely inferior 12...Qxf6 13. Qxd5?! might also win after a long struggle, but makes the job much harder after 13...Nc5!?, when Black has counterchances.

May-05-04  masterwojtek: <Patzer2> You mean 12...fxe6 and 12...Qxe6 right?
May-05-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <masterwojtek> Yes, I intended to record 12...fxe6 and 12...Qxe6. Thanks for the corrections.
May-05-04  boobsmacfadin: black got to greedy in the opening...and then blundered.
May-05-04  Calculoso: (I know white is already winning) What about after 12. ... Qxe6 13. Bxd5 with 'mad forkage' on the knights and queen and soon after Rxe4.
May-05-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: After 11...Nxd4 instead of 11...Qd7??, White has more space and the initiative. However, Black has counter-chances in a near level game.
May-05-04  erikcu: I found this usueful piece of advice in response the ferociousbeast's usual antics. matein8: For anyone who is not aware of the ignore feature:

If a certain member of our community annoys you, you have the power to filter our their kibitzes entirely so that you never need to read their messages again. To do this, simply click on their name and visit their profile, then follow the link at the bottom that reads "IGNORE all kibitzing by _____". They will be added to your ignore-list.

from: ChessGames.com Help

May-06-04
Premium Chessgames Member
  patzer2: <Calculoso> After 12...Qxe6 13. Bxd5!? Raa8 14. BxQe6 RxQd1 15. RxRd1 16. fxe6, White is winning with the exchange and a pawn advantage. However, the simple 12...Qxe6 13. Rxe4! gives White a more decisive material advantage.
May-06-04  iron maiden: That's probably good advice, since it's likely that "furby" is just doing it for the attention. Just ignore him and he'll go away.
Jun-14-05  Knight13: This game is just like this game: Tarrasch vs Zukertort, 1887. GOOD GAME! I LIKE IT!
Mar-16-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Bishoprick: This Spanish is exactly the same as the one against Zuckertort in 1887.
Mar-16-12
Premium Chessgames Member
  Penguincw: Oddly enough, but this isn't even Gunsberg's quickest loss with the Ruy Lopez. This is: Blackburne vs Gunsberg, 1890.
Aug-23-13  estrick: 11...Qd7 is clearly the losing move.

In the CG database there are 23 games where Black plays 11...Nxd4. White wins 10 and Black wins 7, with 6 draws.

11...Nxe5 goes into the "Breslau Variation" with dizzying complications. There are only 9 examples, with White winning two times, Black winning four times, and three games drawn.

May-26-16  zanzibar: How exactly like [bad chessgames.com link] is it really?

Maybe that's the reason that the move order here on <CG> disagrees with those given by Tarrasch himself, in his <300 Games> book.

May-27-16
Premium Chessgames Member
  SwitchingQuylthulg: The removed game was a bad version of Blackburne vs Gunsberg, 1887.
May-27-16  zanzibar: 30 seconds after I writing the above the post gets a "bad link"

Seems that gid=1029187 was known bad back in 2015.

https://web.archive.org/web/2015092...

Leaves me wondering, did I find a <Tarrasch--Zukertort (1887)> game with that gid?

Maybe my now-broken-post can be fixed to make sense as well.

May-27-16  RookFile: Black plays 12 normal looking moves in this game, yet is lost. I think the moral of the story is to learn the opening you're playing and not just try to wing it.
Oct-04-18  Telemus: <z> has already mentioned the move order question.

So, when were the moves a6/Ba4 played? Tarrasch has them as 3rd/4th moves, while the game-score here has it as 5th/6th moves. The latter version is supported by the "Manchester Times" of 29 August 1890. But there Black resigned already after 12.KtxB.

Tarrasch mentioned that he played "genau dieselbe Partie" against Zukertort "oder vielmehr seinen Schatten" in Frankfurt 1887, and he noted additionally that in another tournament in Manchester the game was repeated, too.

Oct-07-18
Premium Chessgames Member
  mifralu: <Telemus>
This source has 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 < a6 4. Ba4 > Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. d4 b5 7. Bb3 d5 8. dxe5 Be6 9. c3 Be7 10. Re1 O-O 11. Nd4 Qd7 12. Nxe6 fxe6 13. Rxe4 1-0

< DWS No.35, 31 August 1890, p.293 >

Oct-08-18  Telemus: <mifralu> The contribution in DWS looks like a serious correspondent report, and so I would say we have here two contradicting primary sources. Therefore I present more material.

---
The "Manchester Times" of 29 August 1890 presents a report of two full columns on the International Chess Congress. The relevant game-score appears at the very end. Within the round descriptions for rounds 1-6 there is this paragraph:

"The fourth round was played on Wednesday afternoon. The game between Dr. Tarrasch and Gunsberg proved a most sensational one. Tarrasch having the first move, played the Ruy Lopez, and, strange to relate, led his opponent into precisely the same trap he so successfully laid for Zukertort at Frankfort. Gunsberg, perceiving that he should lose a piece, resigned the game on the 12th move after exactly half an hour's play."

So, at least this text and the game-score presented are not contradicting.

---
The "Leeds Mercury" of 6th September 1890 has the following notification.

"TARRASCH'S TRAP. -- At least one cause for a little excitement has taken place during the play in the Manchester tournament. Mr. Gunsberg was caught by Dr. Tarrasch in the same manner that the Doctor trapped other large game [sic] in the person of the late Mr. Zukertort in the Frankfort tournament of 1887. The following moves led up to the position:--"

Here the game-score follows with a6/Ba4 as 5th/6th move (with typos) and ending after White's 12th move. Then the text continues.

"Black resigns because he must lose a piece. The excitement was somewhat intensified later on, when in the Minor Tournament, Mr. Mills was playing Mr. Schott. The whisper had gone round amongst spectators that Mills had set "Tarrasch's trap" for his opponent, and no little merriment was caused by the spreading of the information. All were watching in breathless silence to see if Schott would fall into the snare, and, much to the surprise of every one, he fell a victim. Black's eight move is book, but Steinitz prefers Kt to K 2 instead, a move Anderssen adopted in this position."

We always have to keep in mind that one newspaper copies from the other, but the "Manchester Times" has only the first three rounds of the Minor Tournament, in which Mills didn't play against Schott. So, the two articles are at least partly independent.

---
To be continued.

Oct-08-18  Telemus: In Manchester Gunsberg played the Ruy Lopez four times. First in this game (round 4), and thereafter in rounds 6, 11 and 15, and in these three games he always played 3.. ♘f6. This holds also for three games in New York 1889, three games in Breslau 1889 and two games in the match with Tchigorin 1890; however, there is also one exception in New York 1889, where he played 3.. a6 (against Taubenhaus).

After Manchester 1890, the next Ruy Lopez played by Gunsberg as Black in this database is the game G Marco vs Gunsberg, 1895. It shows the move-order 3.. ♘f6 4.O-O ♘xe4 5.d4 a6. So, the rare, but not bad move 5.. a6 was played by Gunsberg at another occasion.

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