< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·
|Apr-07-14|| ||offramp: < zanzibar: I think the pun is supposed to be a wordplay on "Burying a Grudge".>|
... But there is no such phrase!
|Apr-07-14|| ||Tim Delaney: Poor pun, poor game. As <Karpova> observes, f5 is a strategic blunder.|
|Apr-07-14|| ||morfishine: Whoever approved this pun forgot Rule #1: Check the Game Score|
Black won this game
|Apr-07-14|| ||Ratt Boy: <offramp: < zanzibar: I think the pun is supposed to be a wordplay on "Burying a Grudge".>
... But there is no such phrase!>
Agreed. When I google "Bury a Grudge," I find only 14 million hits. There is clearly no such phrase.
|Apr-07-14|| ||paramount: <morfishine>
<Whoever approved this pun forgot Rule #1: Check the Game Score
Black won this game>
huffff, you are right, it just didnt pop up into my head until read your post.
So now the pun also doesnt make sense.
I hate this day!
|Apr-07-14|| ||offramp: <Ratt Boy: <offramp: < zanzibar: I think the pun is supposed to be a wordplay on "Burying a Grudge".> ... But there is no such phrase!>
Agreed. When I google "Bury a Grudge," I find only 14 million hits. There is clearly no such phrase.>|
You must have a special version of Google. Mine says, "About 4,660 results (0.40 seconds)".
But I was referring to "Burying a Grudge". This gives "About 11,900 results (0.25 seconds)".
But 80% at least of those are referring to an episode of <Frasier>.
"burying a grudge" -frasier gives "About 3,600 results (0.35 seconds)", although some of those are still Frasier-related.
|Apr-07-14|| ||weary willy: "Bearing a grudge" is the phrase.
For Brits, the pun "Mary buries" just about works ... but I'm guessing the rest of the world doesn't know the high priestess of the Victoria sponge.
You might not even know Victoria sponges.
|Apr-07-14|| ||offramp: It's <Barnaby Rudge>!|
|Apr-07-14|| ||offramp: <weary willy: You might not even know Victoria sponges.>|
I know her. She's always short of money.
|Apr-07-14|| ||wingpawn: Guys, how about "Rudger Power"?|
|Apr-07-14|| ||weary willy: Believe me Offy, Barnaby isn't in this ... you're right about Victoria, of course, but Chocolate cake is seriously rich
|Apr-07-14|| ||Sally Simpson: "I know the game is not interesting, lets talk about the pun, guys."|
'Proud Mary - Chucked Berry.'
|Apr-07-14|| ||weary willy: <'Proud Mary - Chucked Berry.'>|
|Apr-07-14|| ||Once: Let's see if we can decode this one.
First, the pun. For me it's a conflation of the two players' names (Berry + Rudge) plus two phrases with opposite meanings - "bury the hatchet" and "bearing a grudge". Which in an alternate universe gives us the pythonesque Berrying a Rudge.
Admittedly, it's not a belly-buster rolling on the floor laughing whilst typing appropriately cryptic parent-baffling acronyms into yoofculcher. But it's a little smile.
Next the game. Not a GM classic, but it's an instructive little minx in its own sweet way. Here's the position after the queens have been exchanged with 18. Rxd4
click for larger view
What's going on here? Queens are back in the box and there doesn't seem to be a mating attack in the offing. The open d file suggests that we might get a series of exchanges and an early visit to the pub. That would be a pint of Irish stout for William and a sweet sherry for Mary.
In other words, if we want to win we need to do some of that strategy stuff.
So switch into Silman mode and look for imbalances. There's a classic bishop versus knight imbalance. Bishops need open diagonals. Knights need closed positions and outposts. File that one for now.
More importantly, just look at those prawns. Both black and white have dodgy pawn majorities on opposite wings. Black has a queenside majority spoilt by the doubled c pawns. White has a kingside majority spoilt by the soon to be backwards e4 pawn.
And that gives us the plans for each side. Black will want to push his queenside majority, along the way liberating his doubled pawns. White will have to first defend and then push his e4 pawn. The move he really wants to play is e5.
Mary manages this better than William. She fixes the e4 pawn in place with 18....f6. Then she keeps it there with Re8 (twice) and Re5. You are not getting e5 through there.
She attacks the e4 pawn twice with rook and Bc6.
Next she undermines the e4 pawn by attacking the c3 knight. The knight is forced to move. In the end, it is the white f2 pawn which falls and not e4. But this only happens because of the constant pressure on e4.
Incidentally, Fritzie thinks it's pretty level until white makes a mistake with 29. Kf4. The king is needed to defend e4 and c2, so can't afford to go a pawn grabbing.
But I'm not so sure. I think that white was under pressure for so much of the middlegame that he was probably going to make a mistake eventually. With 29. Kf4 he was probably thinking that he was finally going to be able to push the thematic e5.
Sadly for white he did manage to play e5, but only just before resignation.
It's a pleasant little strategic thingie. A work-a-day, comfy jeans and sweatshirt sort of game. The kind that wins an awful lot of points.
|Apr-07-14|| ||mjmorri: Strategically, Black played this game in the manner of a 2500-2550 player.|
|Apr-07-14|| ||AylerKupp: Well, I think that White's big blunder was 20.b4. As is usual in these positions, White's advantage is his k-side pawn majority (crippled in this case by 12.f4 and the backward e-pawn) and his attempt to created a passed pawn on the k-side. Black's advantage is her bishop and q-side pawn majority with which she would like to create a passed pawn on the q-side. But with the doubled c-pawns she cannot force that, so she must typically wait until White overcommits himself on the k-side. A draw is the likely outcome, specially with the backward e-pawn.|
Of course, none of this is new and is rather obvious, but maybe it was new and it was not obvious in 1874.
So what does White do? By 18.b4 he allows Black to get rid of her doubled c-pawns and get her q-side pawn majority rolling, helped immensely by being able to play 20...Re5 (and later 26...Re5) and 21...c5. Now creating a passed pawn on the q-side <is> possible for Black, and she takes full advantage of that, creating not one but two passed pawns which prove unstoppable, although 35.Rb5 instead of 35.g5 would have slowed down Black somewhat, although the game is probably lost by now anyway. And the immediate 35.e5 would apparently work just as well if not better, relatively speaking, at least according to Critter 1.6a at d=23.
|Apr-07-14|| ||zanzibar: As far as the pun goes, I think that erudite poster, <offramp>, correctly identified the source. I must admit I never heard of this work by Dickens, but maybe with reason:|
<It was Dickens' first attempt at an historical novel (his only other being the much later A Tale of Two Cities, also set in revolutionary times). It is one of his less-highly esteemed novels and has rarely been adapted for film or television (the last attempt was a 1960 BBC production; prior to that, a silent film was made in 1915).>
(And who actually watches the BBC?!)
By the way, is 12.f4 really such a bad move? Back in that era of play it was almost "de rigueur", wasn't it?
And Critter actually puts it in the top-3 until 16-ply or so, and even then its eval isn't so bad (eval > 0 vs 12.Qd3 +0.2/20). But the comments, by much stronger players than I, point out otherwise.
But did Black potentially blunder the win with 37...c5? (vs 37...b3)?
And did White blunder the draw with 38.Kg6? (vs 38.e5)?
I'm a little confused that nobody else seems to mention this? (Both Critter and Stockfish agree on this)
|Apr-07-14|| ||zanzibar: By the way - "Berrying a Rudge" vs "Burying a Grudge".|
"Bury a grudge" is a conflation that has entered into common usage. The exact phrase, being a corruption, isn't standardized. But, gheesh, it's entered popular culture enough to that a Fraiser episode is actually named "Burying a Grudge".
The "correct" phrases are "Hold a grudge" and "Bury the hatchet". Put them in a plastic bag, shake it up, and out comes "Bury a grudge", or some other variant.
|Apr-07-14|| ||ninja warrior: could also be "bearing a grudge", which seems appropriate, considering the guy probably wasn't too happy about losing to a girl...|
|Apr-07-14|| ||offramp: Lasker loved the f5 concept and used it inLasker vs Capablanca, 1914. |
|Apr-07-14|| ||waustad: The original thought was Bearing a Grudge. After losing, perhaps he did.|
|Apr-08-14|| ||AylerKupp: <<zanzibar> By the way, is 12.f4 really such a bad move?>|
I don't think that 12.f4 is a bad move. In fact, I would consider it thematic; in order to have winning chances White has to activate his k-side majority, and f2-f4 is almost necessary in order to do that. But it should have been followed up with something like 13.Qf3 and 14.Rad1
13.f5 is another story as far as I'm concerned (is that the "bad" move you meant?) As <offramp> indicated above, sometimes f4-f5 works well, but of course it depends on the features of the position. In Lasker vs Capablanca, 1914 Lasker was able to post a knight on e6 supported by the Pf5, and Capablanca was never able to use e5 as an outpost for his pieces. So I suppose that the moral of the story is that you can probably get away with f4-f4 in this type of position if you are a Lasker, but I would be skeptical of trying it if you're not.
I don't think that Black potentially blundered the win with 37...c5 since the objective was to prevent White from placing his rook behind the passed b-pawn (maybe that wasn't general knowledge in 1874 either). White could have tried to stop the b-pawn's advance with 38.Rd3 but then after 38...c5 39.Rb4 c3 the c-pawn protects the b-pawn and allows 40...Rc1 and the b-pawn queens. White's king is too far away to help and his pawns are not sufficiently far advance to influence the result of the game.
It looks like you're right that 38.Kg6 instead of 38.e5 throws away the draw. All that White needs is for <one> of his pawns to queen and 38.Kg6 is too slow. Not only do Critter 1.6a and Stockfish DD evaluate the position as approximately equal after 38.e5 but so do Houdini 1.5a and Rybka 4.1 with search depths in the low to mid-20 plies.
|Apr-08-14|| ||kevin86: The queen promotes a queen.|
|Apr-08-14|| ||tamar: Berry tarries, Mary buries|
|Apr-09-14|| ||paramount: Look what i have done. Since the game appeared as GOTD, i am the first one to post a comment.|
And compatible with my hope, now the board is rousing with the comments about "the pun".
This is something good. I like the pun. Really arousing me.
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