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Emil Joseph Diemer vs Fro Trommsdorf
"Re: Diemer" (game of the day Mar-27-2016)
Bagneaux (1973), Bagneux FRA, Jul-??
Pirc Defense: Classical Variation (B07)  ·  1/2-1/2



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Kibitzer's Corner
< Earlier Kibitzing  · PAGE 2 OF 2 ·  Later Kibitzing>
Jan-16-06  mcgee: The other crazy postscript is what would have happened if White had had one more fling with 43 c3...
Jan-16-06  dakgootje: I dont like writing short posts, however i will write what i thought when i saw the game:


post scriptum: yes indeed, i was to shocked to say something

Jan-17-06  mcgee: Wow indeed. I haven't seen so much wild beauty in any other game - I thought it was a fake when I saw it all those years ago.

>>I wonder how long it took Black to realize that this was a trap and to come up with 32....b3 instead.<<

In purely relative terms within the game, it's not the hardest find. That is 34...Rd3. To counter you with a wonder, I wonder whether Tromsdorff had seen 34...Rd3 when he played 32...b3?!?! ' We could be heroes/just for one day...'

To repeat the question above - does anybody know anything else about Tromsdorff?!?

Jan-25-06  Timothy Glenn Forney: White is using excellent tactics but lacks some strategy,he should have won this.13.♖xh7! a brilliant deflection sac.Both players are making strong pawns moves.18.♘f3? this wastes tempo.I question 27.♘xe6+? this pins his own ♘ against his ♔ which is still in the center,allowing black to counter-attack.Black played very well in this game,earning a hard fought draw.
Jan-25-06  Timothy Glenn Forney: Shredder8 (0.76)18.♘d2 ♘c6 19.♘b3 ♖c8 20.♘f3 d3 21.♕h4 dxc2 22.♗e3 ♘f8 23.♗c5+ ♔d8 24.♗xc2 ♕xh4+ 25.♘xh4 ♘xe5 26.fxe5 It seems shredder agrees with me,but gave 18.♘f3 My idea was b3 ,shredder destroyed it.(18.b3 d3 19.cxd3 20.Nxe5! )
May-18-06  PolishPentium: Why not this move for Black...?
Black snaps up both White N, and thereby should be able to defuse the pawn promotion threat. Or is my assumption flawed??
May-18-06  Cyphelium: <PolishPentium> 46.- ♕xh4+ 47. ♕g3 and now if 47.- ♕xg3+ 48. ♔xg3 there is nothing to stop g7-g8♕. If instead 47.- ♕xf6, then just 48. g7 and black has to give the queen to stop the pawn. So 46.- ♕xh4+ loses as well.
Jun-27-06  PolishPentium: PP, back once more with a putzy suggestion...(^-_-^)

Black, of course, does not fall into the trap of playing 32...QxN4, leading to W's retaliatory N fork, winning back the Q. However... perhaps W can turn the tables by playing 33 Qxg5. Assuming Black plays 33...a2, threatening a devastating promotion, white can coolly play 34 Kxd2. (!?) PP hasn't analyzed things sufficiently, but he thinks W thereafter has enough defensive resources. Or does Black still have too much menacing potential??

Once again, as usual, an inquiring (and lamentably small) mind wants to know...

Jun-29-06  Sleeping kitten: I have read Black could have won earlier with 33...Nb4!! If 34.c4 Nxb3+ 35.Kb1 Bxc4 mate follows.
Else 34.Rg1 Na2+ 35.Kd1 Nf3! and mate in four.
Jun-30-06  Cyphelium: <PolishPentium> 32.- ♕xg4 33. ♕xg5 bxa2 34. ♔xd2 and now 34.- ♖e2+ drives the king back; 35. ♔c1 a1♕ mate.
Sep-25-08  afterbirth: Yeah I'm not sure why this is such a renowned game considering black missed the skewer on white's king and queen! I doubt he thought it was a trap like 32. was setup to be, because even if he had captured the white queen, white couldn't check him on the next move and would've been forced to defend it's now unprotected king.

But still, there were some very clever plays throughout the game, on both sides. Sometimes it's more interesting to see inferior, albeit creative alternatives, rather than best move.

Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: I don't know if 29.0-0-0 was the best move, but it had to be played. You only get one chance in a lifetime to make a move like that.

As for Black missing 41...Qa1+, I have the feeling he just assumed he could take the rook with check first, then play 42...Qa1+ after White recaptured. He should have known from the rest of this game never to assume anything.

Oct-19-10  capablancakarpov: This game is the book "Ajedrez espectacular:150 obras maestras de la historia del ajedrez"

Premium Chessgames Member
  al wazir: What's wrong with 41...Qa1+ 42. Kd2 Qxg1 ? If now 43. Rb3/Rf3, then 43...Qg5+. If 43. Nf3, then 43...Qg2+ 44. Ke1 Nxd3+ 45. cxd3 Bxd3 46. Nxd4 Qg1+ 47. Kd2 Qxd4 48. g7 Bxf5+, winning.
Mar-27-16  jith1207: <Phony Benoni>'s logic behind missing Qa1+ was the most sound argument and probably the case in reality.

It happens, I guess, particularly when you are playing such a magnificent game, you tend to miss basic notes sometimes.

Mar-27-16  erixn: I remember watching this game as it was played: both players were in severe time trouble from somewhere around move 20, onlookers crowding around their table and trying to catch a glimpse as they banged out one move more dazzling than the other. Btw, the time and place should be: Bagneux, 1972.
I believe Tr. is identical to Fro Trommsdorff, who played a lot of games in France and was rated around 2200.
Premium Chessgames Member
  whiteshark: <erixn: ... I believe Tr. is identical to Fro Trommsdorff, who played a lot of games in France and was rated around 2200.>

Indeed, accto CB Megabase it has been Fro Trommsdorf It also has annotations in French by Dominique Primel

Premium Chessgames Member
  OhioChessFan: Great game. Funny pun.
Mar-27-16  luftforlife: <erixn>: From <le site du pont-Chinois (FSGT) et d'Issy Les Moulineaux (FFE)> run by Dominique Primel, here's a link to a photograph from the Open Issy les Moulineaux 2008:

The filename recites the player's name as "Fro Tromsdorf [sic]."

FIDE has "Fro Trommsdorf":

The player's name elsewhere seems to be spelled as you spelled it: "Fro Trommsdorff." Gino DiFelice uses this spelling in his entry for Bagneux International Open 1979:

The game above has been misattributed to Bagneux 1975 or to Bagneux 1973 in some databases' PGN headers and in online blogs.

Thanks for sharing your recollection.

Apr-07-16  erixn: Sorry - I got the year wrong, this Bagneux tournament was played in 1973 (July 3-11), not '72! The game itself was published in Danish "Skakbladet" October, 1973.
Apr-07-16  luftforlife: <erixn>: Thanks for your correction; as a kibitzer, I hadn't been completely sure myself. The tournament had been variously reported in different online sources as having been held in '72, '73, or '75. That particular issue of Skakbladet is not currently hosted online at the Dansk Skak Union website, so thanks for consulting it, and thanks for sharing your findings and your recollections. Kind regards.
Premium Chessgames Member
  dernier loup de T: This game is amazing; an unique jewel even Trommsdorf missed the win, which is understable when we condiser the tactical complexities; and lets not forget the age of Diemer when this unbelievable game was played; a pity he was racist and even maybe a little mad, but we have to recognize that such a game is a great contribution to chess as a potential creation of beauty...
Jun-18-16  Imran Iskandar: What on Earth happened in this game? Utterly amazing.
Jul-14-17  Duracell: To Phony Benoni : the fact is that 41...Nxd3+ occured on the 41th move.
1) Maybe it is in zeitnot scramble and Tromsdorff didn't know whether he has played 40 moves or not.
2) Maybe it is the classical post-zeitnot blunder or at last
3) Maybe Black was overconfident and tired and was under the illusion that every move wins. And, as excellent stories go, that was not the case!
Premium Chessgames Member
  Phony Benoni: <Duracell> Any of those could have been a factor in Black's misapprehension.

This was an interesting situation. Blunders in these situations are often the most obvious move on the board. Black had to think a bit to find the unobvious move of taking the rook with check first. For whatever reason, he didn't thnk twice.

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