< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·
|Dec-24-09|| ||A Karpov Fan: no...;-(|
|Dec-24-09|| ||WhiteRook48: I had 48 Nf5, but the wrong follow-up|
|Dec-24-09|| ||tivrfoa: 49. Qg5+ is also a good puzzle.|
|Dec-24-09|| ||patzer2: For what it's worth, Fritz indicates if White choses to play the more complicated 51. Qxh7+ instead of the quick 51. Qg5+! (mate-in-three), he can still mate in eight moves:|
51. Qxh7+ Kf6 52. Qf5+! Ke7 53. Qe5+ Kd7 (53...Kg7 54. Qg5+ Kh8 55. Qh6+ Kg8 56. Qh7#) 53... Kd8 54. Qd6+ Kc8 55. Ba6#) 54. Bb5+ Kc8 55. Qc5+! Kb8 56. Qd6+ Kb7 57. Ba6+! Ka8 58.Qxf8#.
|Dec-24-09|| ||Once: <remolino> Fully agree - a win is a win, after all.|
What is it that pilots say? - any landing you can walk away from is a good landing. I think the same goes for chess. Winning ugly is still winning.
Here in the UK, we have a football (soccer, if you must) team called Arsenal who used to specialise in winning every game by the grand total of 1-0. They would get a goal at some point in the game and then defend like Kramnik's Berlin Wall until time was up. Boring to watch and very frustrating to play against, but extremely effective.
And ... before any Gooners complain ... yes, they have changed their tactics and do play attractive football now.
I don't fully subscribe to the theory that "when you find a good move, look for a better one". So, yes, take the full point for 48. Bc4, and happy Christmas!
|Dec-24-09|| ||Nullifidian: 48.?
White to play. White is up two minor pieces for a rook.
I started looking for forcing lines and came up with:
There is a double threat of ♘h6# or ♕g7# on the next move unless Black does something about it.
48. ... ♙gxf5 is practically forced, but now Black has opened up his king's file. 49. ♕g5+ ♔h8▢ 50. ♕xf5 brings the queen onto the same diagonal with the bishop. Black's 50. ... ♔g7 is almost the only move (besides throwing away his queen) to stave off mate as long as possible. 51. ♕g5+ ♔h8▢ 52. ♕h6. Now Black can only put up a token resistance by throwing away the queen. Let's say 52. ... ♕h1+ 53. ♔xh1 and now any move leads to 54. ♕xh7#.
|Dec-24-09|| ||SufferingBruin: 1000 rating, trying to get better.
I got the first move and was all set to type in "I got it" and leave it at that. I always envied those players/posters who type in those three words: I got it. Sometimes, they won't even type that much. Sometimes, they'll just say, "got it." So that was my goal after finding the first move.
And then I went pawn-grabbing... (sigh)
|Dec-24-09|| ||TheaN: Thurday 24 December 2009
Material: White up, ♗+♘ / ♖
Candidates: Qxf7†, Nf5, Nxf7... works, but I think the simple <[Bc4]> is easier.
Weird position. White is clearly better here, but Black has all kinds of perpetual threat. In fact, this let me to think White's combo has to be reasonably forced. However, it seems like it doesn't. The first real line I was looking at was 48.Nxf7 Rxf7 (48....Qc1 49.Nh6†! Qxh6 50.Bc4† Rf7 51.Qxf7† Kh8 52.Qg8‡ 1-0) 49.Bc4 Qxc2† 50.Kh3 Qf5†!? 51.Qxf5 gxf5 52.Kh4! Kg7 53.Bxf7 Kxf7 54.Kg5 Ke6... for as far as I can see this is winning for White. However, more direct seems to be:
<48.Bc4> and now, the threat of Bxf7† seems unbearable for Black. After:
<48....Qxc2† 49.Kh3> 49....Qf5† is impossible because the Knight is still guarding it. So, the only defense for Black is moving the h-pawn:
<49....h5 50.Bxf7† Kh7 (50....Rxf7 51.Qxf7† Kh8 52.Ne8! Qc3 53.Qf8† Kh7 54.Nf6† Qxf6 55.Qxf6 ) 51.Bxg6† Qxg6 52.Qxf8 Qg4† 53.Kg2 Qe4† 54.Qf3 > this should be winning easily for White. Time to check.
|Dec-24-09|| ||TheaN: 2,5/4
Give myself 3/4 for this as these are right ideas. However, 48.Nf5 is both obvious and to the point. Take that 53....Qe4† in my line was a case of bad board vision, the Knight is still on d6 so Nxe4 is still possible, and after 53....Qe2† 54.Qf2 still wins easily.
However, going for my first line give an even easier endgame: after 48.Nxf7 Rxf7 (48....Qc1 49.Nh6†! Qxh6 50.Bc4† Rf7 51.Qxf7† Kh8 52.Qg8‡ 1-0) 49.Bc4 Qxc2† 50.Kh3 Qf5† (what else) 51.Qxf5 gxf5 52.Kh4! Kg7 53.Bxf7 Kxf7 54.Kg5 Ke6, as pointed out by myself and others, wins easily after 55.Kh6:
click for larger view
Still, the mate is a basic mating combo and should not be overlooked.
|Dec-24-09|| ||gofer: This took a while for me to make it work, but after a bit of persistence...|
48 Nf5! gxf5 (forced)
49 Qxf5 Re8 (forced - anywhere else loses the rook or results in Qxh7#)
50 Qxh7+ Kf8 (forced)
The point being that Qh7 is protecting Pc2, Bc4 is protecting Re2+ and Q+B are threatening
52 Qxf7#, but the only way to protect Pf7 is Re7 and that allows 52 Qh8#. So black can only
51 ... Ke7
52 Qxf7+ Kd8 (Kd6 loses the rook)
At which point black might as well resign. The best black can hope for is to lose the rook
and then move into a lost endgame. The more likely scenario is a forced mate in about 6 moves...
Time to check...
Incidentally, I don't even think that white has to force the situation with 48 Nf5. White is in
complete control and could instead play moves like Qc3, Ne4 and Nf6+ which cause white real
problems (i.e. a knight windmill).
|Dec-24-09|| ||YouRang: Got it. :-)
The Q+B are amply situated to deliver mate if only we can displace black's g-pawn.
That's were the knight come in: <48.Nf5!> is a naked mating threat that must answered by <48...gxf5>, giving the Q+B all the room they need:
<49.Qg5+! Kh8> (don't give black time to make an escape square for the king at f8) <50.Qxf5> another naked mate threat <50...Kg7> trying to come up for air <51.Qg5+ Kh8> pushing the king back under <52.Qh6> with mate next.
|Dec-24-09|| ||TheaN: Oh wait, it doesn't!
click for larger view
55....f4! 56.gxf4 (56.Kxh7 f3 ) Kf5 57.Kxh7 Kxf4 58.Kg6, threatening h4, 58....Kg4 59.Kf6 Kh3 60.Ke6 Kxh3... seems more than enough, but: 61.Kd6 Kg3 62.Kc6 Kf4 63.Kb7 Ke4 64.Kxa7 Kd4 65.Ka6 Kc3=. Instead... one move earlier, 55.h4! wins:
click for larger view
|Dec-24-09|| ||YouRang: Checking with the computer, it seems that white had a bunch of ways to win, but 48.Nf5 was quickest. |
Interestingly, a couple of the 'next best' moves were 48.Kh3 and 48.h4. It turns out at 48.Bc4 also wins, but I was too lazy to consider the consequences of letting the black queen give check with 48...Qxc2+.
(I actually did consider 48.h4, but didn't see the right continuation after 48...Qd1).
|Dec-24-09|| ||remolino: <Once> Happy Christmas to you also and to all kiblitzers, from Mexico|
|Dec-24-09|| ||gofer: I missed the main line, but in the alternative line as annotated, I don't think that 51 ... Re6 is playable as it moves into a lost endgame, but it might still be the best on offer!!!|
51 Bc4 Re6
52 Bxe6 fxe6
Obviously 53 ... Qxc2+ is not playable as 54 Qf2+ swaps off queens into a won endgame for white! So this position must be won for white. Black is down two sets of connected passed-pawns versus just a single passed-pawn. I will see what Fritz thinks...
|Dec-24-09|| ||BOSTER: <remolino> <48.Nf5 is more beautiful, but it is not all about looks, is it?>
This is not about <looks>, this is about chess understanding.
<Once> <Fully agree-a win is a win>.
This is what separates professional players from amateur.
|Dec-24-09|| ||YouRang: <BOSTER: <remolino> <48.Nf5 is more beautiful, but it is not all about looks, is it?> This is not about <looks>, this is about chess understanding. <Once> <Fully agree-a win is a win>. Completely disagree.
This is what separates professional players from amateur.>|
I think one could find several examples of where a professional player neglected the 'most elegant' win because they found a 'clear win' and went with it. Nothing wrong with that.
In fact it's sort of silly IMO to fret over finding a 'more elegant' win once you see a clear way to win.
|Dec-24-09|| ||Stonehenge: <TheaN> 48.Nxf7 Rxf7 49.Bc4 Qxc2+ 50.Kh3 Qxc4 0-1 < CHESSTTCAMPS >|
|Dec-24-09|| ||Once: <BOSTER> This is the season of goodwill, so let's see if we can find a way for us all to agree.|
In a real game, winning matters. So if you spot a sure-fire way to win, the best thing is to take it. Many games have been lost because one player tried to be a little too clever. Simplify, simplify.
48. Bc4 wins without too much fuss or drama. And in an OTB situation, that would be all she wrote.
But you are quite right that we won't improve if we don't keep on pushing ourselves. 48. Nf5 is the cleaner win, and we ought to train ourselves to spot it - without being too harsh or unkind on anyone who find the more prosaic way to bring home the point.
So what is the difference between a professional and an amateur? I think it is this - in a real game, most professionals will do what it takes to win, but in a practice situation they will do what it takes to find the clearest finish.
In other words, we are all right today. And isn't that the spirit of Christmas?
Happy Christmas everyone. Whatever religious belief (or lack of) works for you, I hope you have a peaceful and happy time.
|Dec-24-09|| ||Jimfromprovidence: I looked at my line last night of 48 Kh3 Qc1 49 Bc4 again and saw that it is too complicated compared to 48 Bc4 directly, which wins a piece right away.|
This is because after 48 Kh3 Qc1 49 Bc4 Qh6+ 50 Kg2 black has 50...Qg7!?
click for larger view
Now white can't play 51 Qxg7, because he won't win any more material. He has to play a finesse move like 51 Qe7 first.
|Dec-24-09|| ||OhioChessFan: This was just as easy for a Thursday as yesterday's was for a Wednesday.|
|Dec-24-09|| ||OhioChessFan: <I think all that found 48.Bc4 did solve this one. Leads to an elementary win. >|
I don't agree. White has such a strong position, it's no great shakes to find a move that doesn't make things any worse. Might as well say 49. Qxf5 is correct since it leads to a win.
|Dec-24-09|| ||kattman2040: i agree with ohio. After Nf5 white has a mate in 6 moves no matter what black does. Bc4 does win the game but it also gives white a chance to screw up later. How many of us have lost games we thought were a sure victory. Nf5 is the correct answer.|
|Dec-24-09|| ||TheaN: <Stonehenge: <TheaN> 48.Nxf7 Rxf7 49.Bc4 Qxc2+ 50.Kh3 Qxc4 0-1 < CHESSTTCAMPS >>|
Ouch!! Either Bc4 or of course Nf5! it is! That move is way too easy how could I miss it... :)
|Dec-24-09|| ||al wazir: 47...Qb1 was a terrible move. Almost the first thing I noticed in the puzzle position was the awkward position of the black ♕. Could it be on a worse square? My first try was Nc4-e5-g4-h6#, but that takes a little too long.|
< Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 3 OF 3 ·